Super toned DMPL.....

[TheCount]

Once again a coin that i thought was just above average blows me away....

 

Look at this heavily toned Morgan, pretty sure this is a true DMPL, grade could bed anything from 63 up i think....

i will be sending this one to NCS for preservation, maybe a little lighting and grading.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Its hard to tell from the pictures, almost imposible in fact. I will tell you, though, the TPG's are incredibly hesitant to designate heavily toned coins as DMPL. These coins are quite scarce. It is also hard to distinguish if a coin is truly a DMPL through the toning, because heavy toning such as yours will often obscure the mirrors.

[TheCount]

 

Ok, physics-fan. thanks for the feedback.this should be interesting. as i am sending it first to NCS for conserving, it might make the other part easier, or maybe not! with grading anything can happen, right?

 

and question, as you say toned dmpls are pretty rare... what would one like this be worth, if it was indeed a, lets say, ms64 or ms65???

 

 

[Schatzy]

Best of luck!!

[physics-fan3.14]

If it is indeed very attractively toned, and if the toning is genuine, and if NGC designates it DMPL, and if it grades at 65 or higher - the sky is the limit. However, I am not entirely sure this coin will qualify for any of these. Just out of curiosity, what are you hoping NCS can do for this coin? If you just want them to lighten the toning a couple of shades - I'm pretty sure they can't/won't do that. You run a serious risk of having all the toning permanently removed.

[cpm9ball]

The toning bothers me. It's too perfectly formed around her.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

TC, what makes you think it's a DMPL? You couldn't possibly see any reflectivity through the toning. Even sending it to NCS would probably not change anything.

 

Chris

[L1ncolnF4n]

Obv grade looks MS-65+, but the toning obscures the field.

[Mark T]

I see no reason to send this to NCS , send it off to NGC.

I like the look but I agree with Chris about the toning being perfectly formed around Liberty.

 

[TheCount]

I was just at the FUN convention in florida and listened to a little speech the NCS guys did at the NGC luncheon. What they do with NT is they lighten it somewhat to make it more appealing. Those are the NCS's chiefs words, not mine. NCS only cleans and preserves, and i guess lightens. but i am getting less sure if i want anybody to mess with this coin.

 

 

MarkT: if this is a fake toning job, i would like to meet the guy who did it, a masterpiece.

[cpm9ball]

TC, I was the one who suggested that the toning around Liberty was too perfect. It just doesn't seem that would be a natural way of random toning.

 

Perhaps you misunderstood David Camire. NCS doesn't preserve coins. They can clean them and restore a certain amount of the originality, but there is no guarantee the coin would remain that way. I think removing that much toning would do more harm than good, and I don't think you'll find that the result would be a DMPL coin.

 

Chris

[TheCount]

 

I just added a picture of the reverse, but I kinda doubt if that will help clarify the question if dimpl or not. I asked several big dealers at the FUN show where PL ends and DMPL starts and they all said more or less 'it depends on how much the grader had to drink the night before...."

 

 

[Mark T]

Just send the coin into NGC and let us know how it grades out .

Does not look DMPL to me but I can not tell from your photos as the lighting is not the best.

Was this coin an EBAY purchase?

[cpm9ball]

I just added a picture of the reverse, but I kinda doubt if that will help clarify the question if dimpl or not. I asked several big dealers at the FUN show where PL ends and DMPL starts and they all said more or less 'it depends on how much the grader had to drink the night before...."

 

 

I wouldn't put much stock in any dealer who gave you that kind of an answer. Depending on the grading service you use, the reflectivity required for a Morgan to be considered DMPL will range from 4"-6" and Ultra DMPL at about 12". From what I can see of the clean area of your reverse, it doesn't look DMPL to me. I wish that I could show you photos of my 1880S PCGS MS65DMPL. It's a killer, but I have to replace my photo software which became corrupted.

 

I'm further bothered by the color progression on the reverse. Neither side looks natural to me.

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't believe the coin is DMPL or even PL....most 1879-S thru 1882-S Morgan are semi-PL already which is probably what is hiding under the toning on thise one. The images leave a lot to be desired but the obverse looks completely AT to me and the reverse actually looks ok assuming that the two untoned spots on the lower reverse are actually the reflection of your fingers on the 2X2

 

So one side looks fine and the other doesn't which tells me the photo's are hiding a lot but I also don't see any pull away toning on either side whcih worries me even though their are NT coins out there without it

[cpm9ball]

I don't believe the coin is DMPL or even PL....most 1879-S thru 1882-S Morgan are semi-PL already which is probably what is hiding under the toning on thise one. The images leave a lot to be desired but the obverse looks completely AT to me and the reverse actually looks ok assuming that the two untoned spots on the lower reverse are actually the reflection of your fingers on the 2X2

 

So one side looks fine and the other doesn't which tells me the photo's are hiding a lot but I also don't see any pull away toning on either side whcih worries me even though their are NT coins out there without it

 

Dumb me! The fingers thingy never even crossed my mind.

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

It's ok chris....I take thousands of coin images a month so I can figure out this type of stuff if I look at an image long enough

[rrantique]

I don't believe the coin is DMPL or even PL....most 1879-S thru 1882-S Morgan are semi-PL already which is probably what is hiding under the toning on thise one. The images leave a lot to be desired but the obverse looks completely AT to me and the reverse actually looks ok assuming that the two untoned spots on the lower reverse are actually the reflection of your fingers on the 2X2

 

So one side looks fine and the other doesn't which tells me the photo's are hiding a lot but I also don't see any pull away toning on either side whcih worries me even though their are NT coins out there without it

 

Dumb me! The fingers thingy never even crossed my mind.

 

Chris

 

[cpm9ball]

Dumb me! The fingers thingy never even crossed my mind.

 

Chris

 

 

Don't rub it in, Irvin.

 

 

On second thought, go ahead! It's only common-date 1879.

 

Chris

[TomB]

It's tought to tell much from those images, but be aware that both NGC and PCGS have historically withheld the DMPL designation from deeply toned Morgan dollars.

[oldmorg-migration]

I like her just the way she is. Each Morgan to me is a work of art, and the toning only enhances the uniqueness of the coin. Send it to NGC for grading and slabbing and then just enjoy it. But hey, what do I know?

[jgrinz]

I don't believe the coin is DMPL or even PL....most 1879-S thru 1882-S Morgan are semi-PL already which is probably what is hiding under the toning on thise one. The images leave a lot to be desired but the obverse looks completely AT to me and the reverse actually looks ok assuming that the two untoned spots on the lower reverse are actually the reflection of your fingers on the 2X2

 

So one side looks fine and the other doesn't which tells me the photo's are hiding a lot but I also don't see any pull away toning on either side whcih worries me even though their are NT coins out there without it

 

Dumb me! The fingers thingy never even crossed my mind.

 

Chris

 

ehem "GLASSES" )

[jgrinz]

My Opinion is that the Obverse is too perfect also ... unless it was sitting in a controlled environment.

 

I do not beleive that NGC or any other TPG would give this a pl or dmpl for that matter as even with the angled poor pictures, the obverse is not enough depth of field and the reverse there is not enough frost.

 

My opinion which probably will vary from others

AT/AT

 

 

[cpm9ball]

I don't believe the coin is DMPL or even PL....most 1879-S thru 1882-S Morgan are semi-PL already which is probably what is hiding under the toning on thise one. The images leave a lot to be desired but the obverse looks completely AT to me and the reverse actually looks ok assuming that the two untoned spots on the lower reverse are actually the reflection of your fingers on the 2X2

 

So one side looks fine and the other doesn't which tells me the photo's are hiding a lot but I also don't see any pull away toning on either side whcih worries me even though their are NT coins out there without it

 

Dumb me! The fingers thingy never even crossed my mind.

 

Chris

 

ehem "GLASSES" )

 

What's that you say? I can't hear you!

 

Chris

[prudden]

I just added a picture of the reverse, but I kinda doubt if that will help clarify the question if dimpl or not. I asked several big dealers at the FUN show where PL ends and DMPL starts and they all said more or less 'it depends on how much the grader had to drink the night before...."

 

 

Sounds about right.Though,it seems incredibly difficult to get DMPL.PL is easy.

[coinman23885-migration]

I just added a picture of the reverse, but I kinda doubt if that will help clarify the question if dimpl or not. I asked several big dealers at the FUN show where PL ends and DMPL starts and they all said more or less 'it depends on how much the grader had to drink the night before...."

 

I think that is the dealer's way of politely telling you not to waste the money in grading fees.

 

 

Look TC, no one here is trying to pick on you. Rather, we are all trying to help save you from wasting a fortune on worthless, whizzed coins that will never ever cross at the desired level and designation no matter how much the grader had to drink the previous night (this is more in reference to a lot of your other posts - this coin is much stronger, but still questionable IMHO). Is it possible to find excellent deals on RAW coins? Absolutely. I'm not questioning that; however, if you purchase RAW coins you should have a.) examined the coin in person and b.) have enormous knowledge concerning counterfeit detection and learning to avoid doctored coins. I recall one purchase that I made 10 years ago when I was still a young kid. The coin I purchased for $20, what appeared to be an uncirculated morgan dollar, actually turned out to be an AU50 whizzed coin. At the time, the coin was very deceptive for me and my parents because 1.) I was young and naive and didn't have the requisite knowledge that is required to reasonably ascertain the value and grade of a coin 2.) the coin was purchased in unfavorable conditions (i.e. in a business environment, with fluorescent lights that are notorious for hiding defects). You are in a similar disability when buying RAW coins from sellers on eBay. Fortunately for me, the loss is minimal. With silver at $16.55, I can recover all but $5-7 depending on the discount below spot (that most bullion traders require). My fear, however, is that you will not especially given the fact that coin prices, especially silver and gold, have risen to astronomical levels since my purchases (when silver was $4-6; gold was $350 - $500). There is less room for error since you are purchasing in great selling conditions, at least in terms of bullion prices. After all, many of the doctored/whizzed coins you are likely purchasing are ONLY worth their melt value or so.

 

P.S. You say that you are purchasing graded coins, right? What services do you use? Be careful of "certified" coins on eBay, especially those that are not PCGS, NGC, ICG, or ANACS (the first two are obviously the best without doubt). Even when buying coins from the top four companies, you must also familiarize yourself with grading and counterfeit detecting because a.) people counterfeit slabs and b.) graders do make mistakes. Also beware of condition rarities that are subject to volatile market conditions (more so than other coins).

 

I wish you nothing but the best.

 

 

 

[coinman23885-migration]

I wonder what SGS (Star "Grading" Services) would say?

[Mark T]

I tried to give some advise to The Count and ultimately received a nasty post from him which has since been deleted. I suspected the 1916 Buffalo Nickel he purchased was a GSC coin , when I asked if he purchased the coin from them he became a bit defensive and hinted that it was non of my business where he purchased the coin . What I was trying to do was warn him that GSC doctors their photos and his assumption that the coin would grade MS 66 or better would be more a fantasy then a reality. I had a bad experience purchasing raw coins from GSC 2 years ago, as have others on this board . I also tried to warn him that buying raw coins on EBAY site unseen is a total shot. Great coins and fantastic deals can be found but most of the time you will get doctored over graded stuff. My goal was not to tell him how to collect but to advise him that he

would be better off focusing on certified coins from NGC , PCGS or ANACS. I think he gets excitement out of buying these raw coins in the hope that he will get a great coin once and a while . The problem is he wastes a lot of money on sub par coins . When I started collecting again 2 years ago I was also under the assumption that you could get raw coins on EBAY and then have them successfully graded by a TPG. That assumption was quickly put to rest after my GSC purchase and a bad raw coin purchase from Stacks, as well as listening to people on this board and my local coin dealer. I think The Count just needs some time to realize this, he also needs some mentoring. As a footnote I was fourtunate to pick up a Raw Quarter Eagle on EBAy for $ 400 that was subsequently graded MS 64 by PCGS and also received a Green CAC sticker. Most people who know already know this. That was absolute dumb luck on my part !!

 

[coinman23885-migration]

I tried to give some advise to The Count and ultimately received a nasty post from him which has since been deleted.

 

I saw that. I hope he finally realizes that you were trying to be helpful. From reading your posts in the past, you are blunt but truthful. I value your advice and you are always welcome to criticize my coins anytime . I value your opinion and experience.

 

I suspected the 1916 Buffalo Nickel he purchased was a GSC coin

 

I thought the photographs looked familiar too. By the way, do you have any experience with buying certified coins from Great Southern Coins? I bought a couple of NGC slabs that seemed legitimate (i.e. the slab labels matched NGC records, etc.), but after having seen this post and their dubious practices, I always wonder. Any comments from board members with such experiences would be appreciated.

 

... do was warn him that GSC doctors their photos and his assumption that the coin would grade MS 66 or better would be more a fantasy then a reality. I had a bad experience purchasing raw coins from GSC 2 years ago, as have others on this board.

 

Has anyone ever mentioned this stuff to eBay. If they are intentionally making fraudulent sales across interstate lines, someone may be able to bring a federal action to them. You may have a civil suit and you might want to find out where Great Southern Coins, the corporate entity, is registered. You may be able to complain to the state corporation commission for that district. Also, if the damages are great enough, you might be able to get some help from the FTC.

 

I think The Count just needs some time to realize this, he also needs some mentoring. As a footnote I was fourtunate to pick up a Raw Quarter Eagle on EBAy for $ 400 that was subsequently graded MS 64 by PCGS and also received a Green CAC sticker. Most people who know already know this. That was absolute dumb luck on my part !!

 

I wish I had your luck. I heard about the MS64 quarter eagle. I only wish I could figure out who legitimately sells nice RAW coins online. Again, I prefer to purchase slabbed coins because I don't have your luck. If you ever want to share sources though, let me know (P.S. I wouldn't bid against you if you tell me in advance that you're interested in a coin).

[Mark T]

Hi Coinman,

 

Buying slabbed coins from GSC should not be an issue , I know others here have done so without problems. The issues with GSC are over grading and cleaned raw coins . Buying an over graded raw coin is ok as long as you pay the right price for the actual grade , buying a cleaned one is another issue. Listing a coin in gem BU when it is really Au 58 or low grade MS 61 is deceptive . Because you have a lot of unsophisticated buyers on EBAY Sellers like GSC will fool a lot of people. Pay little attention to EBAY feedback , a lot of people send stuff back and do not post a negative comment , also many people who post that they received a great coin don't realize that they really did not !!. EBAY considers grading to be subjective , so what GSC is doing does not violate any EBAY listing rule. GSC will deny that a coin has been cleaned , if it is their opinion that it is original then once again they did not violate any EBAY rules. It may seem that I discourage buying any raw coin on EBAY - I do not . However I suggest using a lot of caution in doing so, I would also recommend only buying from a trusted seller and only coins of a lower value. Counterfeit coins on EBAY is a major issue , especially on valuable coins .

Attached is a picture of the 1913 Quarter Eagle .

 

 

M