Coins found bearing name of Joseph c. 1800 B.C.

[EZ_E]

 

 

Egyptian paper: Coins found bearing name of Joseph

Biblical patriarch ID'd in hieroglyphs, depiction of cow linked to pharoah's dream

 

An image from the Middle East Media Research Institute revealing Egyptian coins tracked to the time of Joseph

 

Posted: September 26, 2009

11:30 pm Eastern

 

© 2009 WorldNetDaily

 

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Egyptian coins carrying the name of Joseph, the biblical patriarch whose arrival in Egypt as a slave eventually provided salvation for his family during decades of drought across the Middle East, have been discovered in a cache of antique items shelved in boxes in a museum, according to a new report.

 

The report from the Middle East Media Research Institute said the coins with Joseph's name and image were found in a pile of unsorted artifacts that had been stored at the Museum of Egypt.

 

MEMRI, which monitors and translates reports from Middle East publications and broadcasters, said the original report was in Egypt's Al Ahram newspaper in Cairo.

 

The newspaper said the discovery countered claims by some historians that coins were not used for trade in Egypt at the time the Bible records Joseph and the Jews migrated there.

 

Those historians have argued that trade was done by barter.

 

Get the Adams Chart of History and Annals of the World Casebound Bundle

 

But researchers told the newspaper the minting dates of the coins in the cache have been matched to the period in which Joseph was recorded to be in Egypt.

 

"A thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait," said the newspaper report.

 

The report carried an explanation of the discovery by a team involving researcher Sa'id Muhammad Thabet:

 

"Studies by Dr. Thabet's team have revealed that what most archeologists took for a kind of charm, and others took for an ornament or adornment, is actually a coin. Several [facts led them to this conclusion]: first, [the fact that] many such coins have been found at various [archeological sites], and also [the fact that] they are round or oval in shape, and have two faces: one with an inscription, called the inscribed face, and one with an image, called the engraved face – just like the coins we use today," said the report.

 

The newspaper called the find "unprecedented" and said, "The researchers discovered the coins when they sifted through thousands of small archeological artifacts stored in [the vaults of] the Museum of Egypt."

 

The Egyptian newspaper noted that the Quran indicates clearly "that coins were used in Egypt in the time of Joseph."

 

The report continued, "Research team head Dr. Sa'id Muhammad Thabet said that during his archeological research on the Prophet Joseph, he had discovered in the vaults of the [Egyptian] Antiquities Authority and of the National Museum many charms from various eras before and after the period of Joseph, including one that bore his effigy as the minister of the treasury in the Egyptian pharaoh's court…"

 

The report continued, "According to Dr. Thabet, his studies are based on publications about the Third Dynasty, one of which states that the Egyptian coin of the time was called a deben and was worth one-fourth of a gram of gold. This coin is mentioned in a letter by a man named Thot-Nehet, a royal inspector of the Nile bridges. In letters to his son, he mentioned leasing lands in return for deben-coins and agricultural produce."

 

The report explained that other texts from the Third, Sixth and Twelfth Dynasties also talk about coins.

 

"The archeological finding is also based on the fact that the inscribed face bore the name of Egypt, a date, and a value, while the engraved face bore the name and image of one of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs or gods, or else a symbol connected with these. Another telling fact is that the coins come in different sizes and are made of different materials, including ivory, precious stones, copper, silver, gold, etc." the newspaper reported.

 

The museum research uncovered 500 of the coins "carelessly" stored in boxes.

 

One even had the image of a cow "symbolizing Pharaoh's dream about the seven fat cows and seven lean cows, and the seven green stalks of grain and seven dry talks of grain," the report said.

 

"Joseph's name appears twice on this coin, written in hieroglyphs: once the original name, Joseph, and once his Egyptian name, Saba Sabani, which was given to him by Pharaoh when he became treasurer. There is also an image of Joseph, who was part of the Egyptian administration at the time," the report said[/font]

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If this account is accurate then it will contest the accepted account that Lydia had the first ever minted coins in c. 600 B.C..

 

 

[font:Courier New]The earliest known coins date bate to about 600 B.C. and were struck in Lydia and Ionia, which is now Turkey.

 

The Lydian third stater or trite or Lydian Lion, possibly minted by King Alyattes, is believed to be the world's first coin, though other coins from the area via for the title.

 

The Lydian third stater was made of electrum, an alloy of gold and silver, and was the first coin to have certified markings on it to hold a definite exchange value and issued by governmental authority to be used as money. These traits meet the dictionary definition of a coin an thus we present it as the world's first coin.[/font]

 

In the book, "Dead Man's Secrets", it is claimed that a prediluvian coin (before 2344 B.C.) was found at a depth of over 1000 feet from a well drilled in Illinois. The book shows a drawing of the coin showing an apparent human sacrifice with writing around the circumference of the round coin.

 

How true are these accounts? I have no idea but it is not surprising that history as we've been taught may not be entirely accurate.

 

 

[World Colonial]

To my knowledge, there are ancient records which state that gold or silver were used as money, but I do not know what form it was. The Genesis narrative mentions that Abraham paid for his wife Sarah's burial tomb in shekels of silver. I understand that this refers to a specific weight but do not know the form.

 

But do not expect the conventional thinkers in the academic community to embrace this alternative position. Despite claims that they seek the truth and have an unbaised interest because there is supposedly no profit motive, that is bogus. Many of them have career reputations at stake and in some instances a financial interest in the positions they hold. Its an unfortunate fact that some people would rather proclaim a lie than admit they were wrong.

 

One example of such an occurrence was with the writings of Velikovsky. Thogh not all his opinions and theories have been "proved" or accepted, many have. When you see these documentaries about asteroid and meteor impacts, he was one of the first to state this. Now it is conventional opinion.

 

[EZ_E]

I really like Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" and "Earth in Upheaval". He draws upon many myths and tries to piece them to the historical record. However, his theory that a comet's tail contained the flies as the source for one of the Egyptian plagues probably is not true.

[cladking]

It's not really very well established that Joseph existed.

 

So far as is known there certainly weren't coins until long

after the third dynasty, of course. There is a rather curious

line in the PT "His fare is not accepted in the great ship".

This is a pretty complicated concept for the time this was

written so I've suspected it's a translation error. "Fare"

is simply more complicated than "money". Of course it's poss-

ible that the translation is accurate and fare was a service

or product tendered in exchange for passage.

 

Records from 1800 BC in Egypt are quite good. There aren't

a lot that are complete but I don't believe there's room for "mon-

ey". Gold was highly prized and silver nearly as much so until

trade brought in larger quantities of silver after 2000 BC. Barter

was the means of trade but as in many places gold could play

a role in a barter trade.

 

It's fascinating that it was tokens which led to writing but two

thousand five hundred years went by before coins were invented.

 

 

[satootoko]

Was this first published on April 1?

[World Colonial]

I really like Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" and "Earth in Upheaval". He draws upon many myths and tries to piece them to the historical record. However, his theory that a comet's tail contained the flies as the source for one of the Egyptian plagues probably is not true.

 

Me too. I do not agree or consider all of his theories legitimate but they are a lot more realistic and rational than those of say, Joseph Campbell. He seemed to assume that everything in myth and legend was made up which concurrently assumes that everyone at the time was a supersticious insufficiently_thoughtful_person. I consider his opinions to be complete claptrap.

 

As for the historicity of someone like Joseph, I concur that his existence has not been proven though I do believe he existed. As for the Egyptian records form 1800 BC or BCE, one of the reasons he may not appear in them is because in the ancient records, many people were known by different names.

 

But a second and more important reason is because the supposed records from this period are based upon a questionable and possibly bogus Egyptian chronology, even though it is the one used by the academic establishment. Velikovsky covered this in "Ages in Chaos" and at least one other writer has done so as well, though I do not remember whom.

 

According to Velikovsky, the Egyptian chronology in modern conventional thought is based upon the records of Manetho who lived in the third century BCE. The records he compiled include dynasties which were concurrent and not consecutive and for some of them, may not even be the ruling dynasty at all.

 

If this is true, then those who are looking for the existence of Joseph in the 18th century BC using the conventional chronology are looking in the wrong time and the same applies to many other individuals, including the Pharoahs themselves. In "Ages in Choas", Velikovsky attempts to align the Egyptian with the Assyrian records plus those of the Old Testament. Though I'm not familiar with all the other sources he is challenging, his method does appear to make sense.

[cladking]

Manetho's king's list is especially questionable befor the First Itermediate Period about 2100 BC. It is even internally inconconsistent yet is often cited as proof of one thing or anpother. He wrote several very iportant books and may have had some original sopurces but all these books are lost to us today. His words come down to us through secondary sources. It's remarkable how scholars pick and choose what they want to believe. Manetho said stones moved up to the pyramid 300' at a time yet this isn't believed Despite being consistent with the actual evidence.

 

Carbon dating also puts the kabosh on Manetho yet this is merely written off.

[World Colonial]

Sounds like you are more familiar with this than I am. But generically, I would question much of the accepted historical chronology. It is simply one of many "facts" which many or most people assume is more or less correct when in actuality, it is not.

 

Another part of the chronology which Velikovsky challenges is the conventional Greek one which is accepted as it is today because it was made to fit the "official" Egyptian one. Velikovsky claims that the accepted Egyptian chronology has many additional centuries in there that are double counted and therefore, so does Greece. (I cannot remember exactly but I believe he claims at least four.)

 

From what I know, the oldest fixed historical date is 664BC which is when the sacking of Thebes (Egypt) by the Assyrians ocurred. This is not a Velikovsky date though he does cover the history of Assyria in another unpublished manuscript. How this date was determined, I do not recall.

 

My guess is that Manetho did have access to many lost sources. Its also possible that he might have made some things up. Herodotus is accused of doing this based upon the fantastic (fictional) claims he has made. I have his book on western history as part of my Britannica "Great Books" set but I am actually more interested in the eastern volume which I do not have.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

So what you are really saying is Manetho = Breen?

[cladking]

Sounds like you are more familiar with this than I am. But generically, I would question much of the accepted historical chronology. It is simply one of many "facts" which many or most people assume is more or less correct when in actuality, it is not.

 

 

Not necessarily.

 

I have recently familiarized myself with everything that's known about the age when the great pyramids were built but you can just about do this in an evening. I've been at it a couple years and have picked up a little about later events through osmosis.

 

The oldest date known was put together by some astronomical event and is some day in September in about 4135 BC. Curiously this is close to the age of the earth as computed from biblical sources. Perhaps even more curiously it's only a little after the invention of the cultivation of yeast by the Egyptians. Maybe it's all related; they got drunk and stared at the stars until they thought up the Gods.

 

I've come to suspect that some of the ancient writing was based on things that were very real as seen through primitive eyes. There may be a great deal of literal truth in much of the ancient writing. Toss in the fact that they knew a lot of things we don't and we misapprehend their referents and it appears fictional to us.

 

While Manetho could only rely on his sources one is still left to question how a king might have a 200 year break in his reign or last for centuries. The Palermo Stone is probably a much more reliable source but is very incomplete and damaged.

[EZ_E]

I think what I find most fascinating about Velikovsky's writings is the callendar change.

 

According to him, Venus was worshipped from Moses' time until the founding of Rome in c. 750 BC.

 

Although I don't necessarily by his theories, it is interesting. Something certainly happened to change the appointed seasons around the time of the founding of Rome.

 

Velikovsky speculates that Venus was originally a comet that jacked with the cosmic order in Moses' time (c.1500BC). This was the source of the plagues in the biblical record. (I personally don't buy it but I wasn't there.) Venus messed with Mars' orbit and finally settled into its new orbit and became a planet. (It does spin backwards which would violate the Law of Angular Momemtum assuming the the Big Bang is true.) Mars was then a rogue planet and actually passed between the earth and the moon which he backs up with myths.

 

What I find interesting in this account is that Jonathan Swift wrote "Gulliver's Travels in, I think, 1751. It describes Mars' moons in detail 150 years before they were "discovered" with modern telescopes. And the moons are named, in Greek, Fear and Panic. So, If Mars did actually pass so close to the earth then this explains how the moons were spotted and documents. And, such an event would incite fear and panic.

 

This supposedly happed around the time of the founding of Rome c. 750 BC. Then Venus faded as the patron goddess and Rome was founded with Mars being the patron deity.

 

Something certainly affected the homeostasis of the earth because it is documented of a time when the Chinese had to relearn the seasons, when to plant and harvest, etc.

 

The Jewish calendar had 360 days in a year. Biblical prophecy still uses this calendar system in Daniel and Revelation. So, where did the extra 5 days come from? The Mayans were terrified of these days. Any child born during the added days were put to death, food and laundry was done before they entered these 5 dead days.

 

These 5 days corresponded to the days around Halloween.

 

Why is September, October, November and December from the Latin for seven, eight, nine and ten when they are actually the nineth, tenth, eleventh and twelvth months in our calendar?

 

Egyptian water clocks corresponded to an ancient calendar. The celestial scene on an ancient Egyptian tomb had the constellations all out of alignment like there was a shift in the earth's axis.

 

Lots of data is presented that is intriguing. But it is no surprise that most all scholars will discount any evidence or theories that discount their own pet theories, especially the theory of evolution which assumes uniformitarianism which means that all things go on and on like they've always have, slow, gradual forces changing our planet, slowly laying down sedimentary layers. It discounts cateclysmic events.

 

Another book that I highly recommend is "After the Flood" by Bill Cooper.

 

He covers the migration of Noah's sons after the flood. Japheth was a central figure. Jupiter was a possible bastardization of the name. Japheth's descendents settled Europe and all early "British" kings could trace their geneaology to him. Modern scholars just trace Anglo-Saxon history back to Julius Caesar around 44 BC and discount the nearly 2000 years of history before then. Very interesting book that presents lots of evidence in the line of Velikovsky. He also speculates that Beowolf was an actual historic figure. A very intriguing read, in my opinion.

[World Colonial]

It's been awhile since I read his three books, but I'm familiar with most of the details you list. I consider many though not all of his ideas plausible or at least I give them more credence than much of interpreted history which I consider to be conventional thinking claptrap. As in many other areas, these people frequently pretend to know more than they possibly can, including more than the people who lived during those times who they seem to assume were incompetent insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

 

There are some unpublished manuscripts of his on the Velikovsky Archives on the web which are mostly well written but some contain even more fantastic claims. But his writings on Assyria and ancient Greece are fascinating reads.