pcgs/ngc/anacs/icg

[JIM F.]

Can some of the more informed people on this board help me understand why PCGS graded coins seem to get significant premiums over NGC, ANACS, and ICG.

 

I recall several years ago that ICG was getting a premium over all the others. From my experience I am finding the grading relatively consistent between all 4 of these TPGs. Is it perception, or is there something I am missing?

 

Thanks for any insight on the topic.

 

 

[Mozin]

Generally, PCGS holdered coins bring the most money, and they are easiest to sell.

 

ICG has gone well out of favor, and therefore, often ICG holdered coins simply do not sell without huge discounts. Check out the auction Prices Realized to verify this statement.

 

The new ANACS has not managed to increase their presence in the marketplace. They still have the reputation for the most liberal grading, therefore ANACS holdered coins trade even below NGC coins.

 

NGC seems to have improved their consistency in grading a bit, but their reputation for inconsistent grading haunts them.

 

Just my personal thoughts...

[World Colonial]

I do not collect US coins but would be very unlikely to pay a premium for an ICG coin over a PCGS or NGC coin. I buy all of my coins remotely.

 

For ancient and world coins, PCGS has essentially lost the market over to NGC. I'm not even sure they grade ancient coins and NGC throroughly dominates world coin grading. PCGS has some very nice coins in the series I collect but the truth is, there simply are not very many of them.

 

For US coins, I do not pay attention to pricing that closely but to my knowldege, the biggest price spreads exist with conditional rarity and near conditional rarity grades. Given that I consider prices for conditional rarities to be absurd to begin with, I would not be buying any of these coins.

[WoodenJefferson]

With each PCGS coin graded, you get as a bonus, a huge bladder buster of Kool-aide to help wash all the hype down.

 

On a more serious note, PCGS has done a better job at making their product familiar with collectors through an aggressive marketing campaign. That's all good and well, but when it comes down to the actual grade on a coin, PCGS & NGC are on an even keel and both are very accurate with their assessments.

 

Recently, ANACS has fallen out of favor (I expect them to return) but ICG has just been left in the dust.

[PerryHall]

Don't forget the PCGS registry doesn't allow any other company's slab.

[James_OldeTowne]

I believe the PCGS registry hype has led to excessive (in my opinion) premium for coins in their holders. The truth is, in general, the two companies grade about the same overall. Don't fall for the hype. Given two equivalent coins graded the same, always buy the less expensive one, whatever holder it is in.

[PCcoins]

PCGS is the more consistent grading especially in ms66, ms67 grades.

 

NGC is well behind PCGS IMO.

[JIM F.]

My experience has been that in the MS-62 grade of US gold, I have always had ICG and ANACS crack outs come back graded MS-62 when submitted to PCGS. This has worked to my benefit, but maybe I was just lucky??? I guess if I was REALLY lucky they would come back MS-63, but I figure the difference between MS-61 vs. MS-62 is minimal ( for $5 liberties and $2.50 indians) and getting the ANACS and ICG at a big discount seems to be a pretty good deal.

 

Of course, I won't touch SEGS -- and PCI is on a case-by-case basis.

 

 

[PerryHall]

jimbucks----Where can I buy these MS61/62 gold coins in anacs and icg slabs "at a big discount"?

[PerryHall]

Sorry. Double post.

[michael]

with pcgs registry set fever especially so with ms/pr 66+ post 1900 coins and morgan dollars inflate their value

 

pcgs also has what i feel to be a more attractive holder and overall a better coin viewing in their holder

 

for coins that are not as much registry set driven with grades below ms/pr 66 both ngc and pcgs in general seem to be on par

[James_OldeTowne]

PCGS is the more consistent grading especially in ms66, ms67 grades.

 

NGC is well behind PCGS IMO.

I've heard and seen this comment many times. Yet nobody is willing to try to "prove" it by cracking out their MS-66s and MS-67s and resubmitting them to PCGS to see if they "consistently" get the same grades back. Why is that ?

[coinman1794]

I think there are a select few 20th century issues Licoln Cents and Washington Quarters, where PCGS has a perceived tighter standard for MS67 than NGC. That said, I think regular submitters to PCGS and NGC know the truth. I've have PCGS grade a Washington Quarter MS66, MS64, and MS67, in that order. Keep in mind that grading is not, and has never been, consistent at any grading service.

[19Lyds]

Personally, I do not think that the PCGS Set Registry has anything to do with the "perception" that PCGS is the best of the top TPG's. Their performance in the grading arena provides all the testament that is needed. Better yet, the performance of PCGS's "competitors" provides the testament while PCGS just sits back and enjoys the ride.

 

All that could change very quickly though since, lately, it appears that PCGS is not "actually" grading much of anything and coin which were graded two years ago, in all liklyhood, would not grade the same today.

[DC Dawg]

PCGS is the more consistent grading especially in ms66, ms67 grades.

 

NGC is well behind PCGS IMO.

I've heard and seen this comment many times. Yet nobody is willing to try to "prove" it by cracking out their MS-66s and MS-67s and resubmitting them to PCGS to see if they "consistently" get the same grades back. Why is that ?

I hate to say this, but the statistics from the CAC would be helpful here.

 

Scott

[19Lyds]

PCGS is the more consistent grading especially in ms66, ms67 grades.

 

NGC is well behind PCGS IMO.

I've heard and seen this comment many times. Yet nobody is willing to try to "prove" it by cracking out their MS-66s and MS-67s and resubmitting them to PCGS to see if they "consistently" get the same grades back. Why is that ?

I hate to say this, but the statistics from the CAC would be helpful here.

 

Scott

 

I don't think that even CAC stats would have a bearing since even they miss.

Check out this from ATS.

[stinkycheese1]

From what I have learned PCGS is generally stricter on their grading...and the market knows that. That's why they sell for more..

[WoodenJefferson]

As we always see on TV, at the end of a briefing at the police station, the Sgt. always advises their uniform patrol, “Be careful out there”

 

I can imagine the ending of a meeting at PCGS, “Keep that crack-out game alive people!”

[Tradedollarnut]

Given two equivalent coins graded the same, always buy the less expensive one, whatever holder it is in.

 

Please only follow this advice when you have the expertise to truly tell that the two coins are equivalent in quality. Buying low quality coins at a discount is the surest way to lose a lot of money in coins.

[JIM F.]

So why did ICG go down so hard? As mentioned in my original post, at one time they were more highly regarded than all the others.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

So why did ICG go down so hard? As mentioned in my original post, at one time they were more highly regarded than all the others.

 

No they weren't. You just read their marketing.

[DC Dawg]

So why did ICG go down so hard? As mentioned in my original post, at one time they were more highly regarded than all the others.

ICG and ANACS ate each other alive in December 2007 when James Taylor took over ANACS, moved them from Texas to Colorado Springs, "stole" ICG employees (Taylor was president of ICG at the time), and started to hawk overgraded moderns on the home shopping channel.

 

ICG tried to recover by hiring former ANACS employees that were "fired" when ANACS was moved from Austin to Colorado Springs. ICG seemed to never recover its footing. ICG was moved to Tampa where the owner, Mark Yaffe, is trying to reorganize his other business National Gold Exchange currently in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. ICG did hire Skip Fazzari, who is a well known counterfeit detector earlier this year. That seemed to hold promise, but I have not heard much about them since.

 

One company that I am watching with interest is Dominion Grading Service. Purchased from the ashes of PCI, the few coins I have seen in DGS plastic have looked good. However, I think DGS may need to do more in order to market themselves to get the word out. I am silently rooting for them to provide additional competition in the market.

 

Scott

[DC Dawg]

PCGS is the more consistent grading especially in ms66, ms67 grades.

 

NGC is well behind PCGS IMO.

I've heard and seen this comment many times. Yet nobody is willing to try to "prove" it by cracking out their MS-66s and MS-67s and resubmitting them to PCGS to see if they "consistently" get the same grades back. Why is that ?

I hate to say this, but the statistics from the CAC would be helpful here.

 

Scott

 

I don't think that even CAC stats would have a bearing since even they miss.

Check out this from ATS.

Mistakes happen on all sides. However, since CAC is a grading the grader type of service, I think their statistics would be educational to the market.

 

Scott

[James_OldeTowne]

Given two equivalent coins graded the same, always buy the less expensive one, whatever holder it is in.

 

Please only follow this advice when you have the expertise to truly tell that the two coins are equivalent in quality. Buying low quality coins at a discount is the surest way to lose a lot of money in coins.

Agreed, and thanks for clarifying my previous post.

 

As to ICG, they were never seen as being superior to NGC and PCGS. At best, they briefly achieved a level of respectability very near the "big 2", but quickly destroyed their reputation by slabbing huge quantities of coins improperly graded MS-70.

 

I simply do not agree that PCGS is somehow "stricter" than NGC (supposedly leading to higher prices for their coins). Indeed, I would say they are slightly more erratic in grading, but in the direction of undergrading coins. I have just never understood how collectors can think that is somehow a good thing. If a TPG undergrades your coins, and you go to sell them, you end up getting LESS for your coins than you might have, given the correct grade!

 

In my experience, the two companies are about equivalently strict, with a couple of series on either side that are a bit more strictly graded.

 

(All just my opinion, of course.)

[PerryHall]

From what I remember ICG did a fairly good job grading classic US coins but was too loose with grading moderns and was too generous with the MS/PF70 grade. This looseness in grading moderns hurt their credibility across the board and they never got back the respect they initially once had.

[123cents]

From what I remember ICG did a fairly good job grading classic US coins but was too loose with grading moderns and was too generous with the MS/PF70 grade. This looseness in grading moderns hurt their credibility across the board and they never got back the respect they initially once had.

 

 

I agree. Several years ago many circulated classic coins graded by ICG would cross over to PCGS and NGC at the same grade and many times higher.

[coinman1794]

Personally, I do not think that the PCGS Set Registry has anything to do with the "perception" that PCGS is the best of the top TPG's. Their performance in the grading arena provides all the testament that is needed. Better yet, the performance of PCGS's "competitors" provides the testament while PCGS just sits back and enjoys the ride.

 

 

Is that grape or cherry cool-aid?

[jason888]

I cant believe ICG is still in business.

[coinman1794]

I cant believe ICG is still in business.

 

I'm not sure how they are remaining in opporation either. Maybe they cut back to 1 grader!