Major news with regards to AT coins hitting the market...BEWARE

[kryptonitecomics]

So as to not have to rehash this past weeks findings and events I am going to include some links to key threads over on the TCCS if any of you would like to read what's been going on.

 

A breif summary of events would go something like this:

 

Around a month ago a few very distictive and eye catching Morgan dollars started showing up in top TPG holders with basically the same colors and toning pattern. Some of these dates were previously unknown with these colors schemes which immediately raised some Suspecions with some of the more seasoned collectors and members of the TCCS.

 

Here are a few examples but their are many more in the links I will provide:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These examples by themselves would most likely not set off any warning lights for most collectors especially if purchased already graded by PCGS or NGC. That's the scary part of this story

 

As more coins with these colors and patterns started to surface (Washington Quarters, Mercury Dimes, Franklin Halves, Roosevelt dimes) it became very appearent that a coin doctor was involved and had gotten good enough at times to actually get some of these coins past the experts.

 

Most of the principals involved in buying and selling these coins have already been outed by the TCCS or have even come forward to out themselves. So for those that collect toned coins I think you might want to take a look at these threads and find out everything you can about these coins so you don't make a mistake an purchase one on Ebay or at a show as there is no telling how wide spread this issues already is.....

 

Steps are being taken right now by one of the founding members of the TCCS to meet with the powers that be at the major TPGs to bring them up to speed with what has transpired.

 

 

What difference a grading service makes

 

To the members of this board...

 

 

The coin doctor speaks out...

[physics-fan3.14]

Thanks Shane for doing this. I had been following events on the TCCS forums, but I don't know how many people here go over there. This is very scary stuff, because I certainly would not have picked many of those for AT.

[MunkyMan95]

All of the coins you pictured are AT?

 

Weren't most of those actually for sale on the Money Marketplace and the BST on the PCGS forums?

 

I recognized some of them right away, not as being AT, but as having been sold right under our noses.

 

Is the seller the doctor, or is he another victim?

[kryptonitecomics]

All of the coins you pictured are AT?

 

Weren't most of those actually for sale on the Money Marketplace and the BST on the PCGS forums?

 

I recognized some of them right away, not as being AT, but as having been sold right under our noses.

 

Is the seller the doctor, or is he another victim?

 

 

I will leave that up to each person to decide.....personally when I see the totality of the coins being sold it's hard for me to conceive that the sellers had no knowledge but......they do present their sides in the links I provided so I think it's fair for each person to make up their own mind where they stand on the info presented.

 

and yes I am sure you do recognize some of these coins from sales threads/ebay and yes I am saying there is a very high probability that all of the coins I posted are in fact AT.

[physics-fan3.14]

Just to let you know, the first thread you linked has been so heavily redacted that it is useless.

[kryptonitecomics]

Just to let you know, the first thread you linked has been so heavily redacted that it is useless.

 

Not really.....that part of the discussion was all about one of the sellers being banned from the forum and I thought they were talking about a different member who is a friend of mine and I was defending him the whole time while others thought I was defending the seller selling AT coins. So to eliminate some of the confusion we deleted our posts......

[WinstonWare]

Interesting. Thanks for posting

[BillJones]

I think that all of the silver dollars that kryptonitecomics posted here are ugly as hell and should not have fooled any experienced collector, except those who are afflicted with wishful thinking. The colors are just too bright, and those who have seen a number of naturally toned coins should be able to spot that. Most of the Roosevelt dimes were the same way, although the Washington quarter is decidedly deceptive if it is AT. The sad part is PCGS is slabbing this junk. That gives it legitimacy that it does not deserve.

 

There are a couple of posts across the street of 1904-O toned Morgans that I think are just plain ugly. One is characterized as “a monster” by its owner, and the other was called “low grade, but great color. Sadly it seems to some people that any bright color is “wonderful,” and I don’t really know what to do for these people. If I post my true opinions, all I get is animosity. It’s hard to educate people who are so set in their ways.

 

[kryptonitecomics]

I think you are 100% entitled to your opinion Bill and should not be chastized for speaking your mind. There are plenty of folks here and across the street that don't like toners or the toners with wild colors so your not alone.

 

I will say that for myself and the members of the TCCS, we have no problem with wild colors as long as the color is legit. In the case of bag toned Morgans that can be and typically is very vibrant and colorful and while that doesn't appeal to some, it knocks our socks off.

 

My reason for this post was not to disparage toned coins, not that I feel you are doing that by stating and honest opinion Bill...it was simply to warn others that there are some very good fakes floating around that look like the real deal and are even being slabbed by the top TPGs.

 

I have seen some of the coins in your collection Bill and I know you are not settling for less by avoiding these coins with eye popping colors as you have some truly amazing coins in your collection

[truthteller]

I think that all of the silver dollars that kryptonitecomics posted here are ugly as hell and should not have fooled any experienced collector, except those who are afflicted with wishful thinking. The colors are just too bright, and those who have seen a number of naturally toned coins should be able to spot that. Most of the Roosevelt dimes were the same way, although the Washington quarter is decidedly deceptive if it is AT. The sad part is PCGS is slabbing this junk. That gives it legitimacy that it does not deserve.

 

 

 

 

I agree. Most of the Morgans look funny on first impression The Sac dollar and BTW commem just don't come that way when naturally toned. However, one of Roosevelt dimes and Washington quarter have an NT appearance. Know what to look for. Then, don't spend TOO much money.

 

 

TRUTH

[Old Pueblo]

Pardon my ignorance

AT = "Artificially toned"?

NT= "Natural Tone"?

TCCS?

 

Thanks

[gpnyc]

I can honestly say that if any of these coins were in an AT/NT guessing thread, I would have said AT on every single one of them. No hesitation. How these got into PCGS holders is beyond me.

[Just Bob]

Pardon my ignorance

AT = "Artificially toned"?

NT= "Natural Tone"?

TCCS?

 

Thanks

 

Read Shane's (Kryptonitecomics) sig line.

[kryptonitecomics]

Pardon my ignorance

AT = "Artificially toned"?

NT= "Natural Tone"?

TCCS?

 

Thanks

 

Read Shane's (Kryptonitecomics) sig line.

 

 

He doesn't know the secret handshake.....sssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

 

 

Yes

 

AT=Artificially Toned

NT= Natural Toning

TCCS= Toned Coin Collector Society

 

[BillJones]

I have seen some of the coins in your collection Bill and I know you are not settling for less by avoiding these coins with eye popping colors as you have some truly amazing coins in your collection

 

Actually I do have a few toners in my collection. Here's one. It's got nice color and I paid a premium because of that, but the coin does not look like a neon sign.

 

This coin is in a PCGS MS-63 holder, and I think that it's under graded. The dealer from whom I bought it sent it in three times for a higher grade back in the green label holder days.

 

[mommam17]

Bill`s Columbian has all the natural colors that I like.

[gmarguli]

Actually I do have a few toners in my collection. Here's one. It's got nice color and I paid a premium because of that, but the coin does not look like a neon sign.

 

Oh Bill, you're too modest. Here is what the coin really looks like.

 

 

You just need to hit it with the right light. That is a 100% accurate image and unless you have it in hand you cannot say otherwise no matter how ridiculous wild the picture looks. Much like most monster toned coins, it glows so much that you don't even need a light in a dark room. I've saved thousands on my electricity bill just by placing a few monsters strategically around my home.

[physics-fan3.14]

Much like most monster toned coins, it glows so much that you don't even need a light in a dark room. I've saved thousands on my electricity bill just by placing a few monsters strategically around my home.

 

That would probably work if true monsters didn't cost so bloody much! That and I'd be afraid of radiation poisoning coming from those coins glowing in the dark.

[coinman1794]

I think that all of the silver dollars that kryptonitecomics posted here are ugly as hell and should not have fooled any experienced collector, except those who are afflicted with wishful thinking. The colors are just too bright, and those who have seen a number of naturally toned coins should be able to spot that. Most of the Roosevelt dimes were the same way, although the Washington quarter is decidedly deceptive if it is AT. The sad part is PCGS is slabbing this junk. That gives it legitimacy that it does not deserve.

 

 

 

 

I agree. Most of the Morgans look funny on first impression The Sac dollar and BTW commem just don't come that way when naturally toned. However, one of Roosevelt dimes and Washington quarter have an NT appearance. Know what to look for. Then, don't spend TOO much money.

 

 

TRUTH

 

Bill is 100% spot on. It is inconceivable to me that these coins made it into problem free slabs.

 

Bill wasnt saying he hates color coins, he was saying he hates these color coins, because they are onbviously artificial. He rightly note that a seasoned numismatist who knows what natural toning looks like would spot these every time.

 

Truth, I agree with you accept for the fact that Sac dollars do tone that way, and I have one that I found myself that was pulled from change in 2000 and sat in a change purse in a coin collection for 7 years before being discovered as a rainbow toner. So it's 100% natural, in fact, the definition of a naturally toned coin (pics included). That said, I dont see the PCGS coin above as natural, especially considering the coins around it are known ATs.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Those “edge view” images on that raw Morgan are very interesting indeed. There is no way a Morgan with toning as such could get by a professional grader/dealer.

 

Also, this topic would last about 37 seconds ATS.

[MarkFeld]

I can honestly say that if any of these coins were in an AT/NT guessing thread, I would have said AT on every single one of them. No hesitation. How these got into PCGS holders is beyond me.

If that's the case, you would probably also condemn many naturally toned coins, as well.

[prudden]

Get ready for hundreds of "Is my coin AT or NT? posts.Man,I've seen these around for alot longer than a month.The asking and bidding was just too high for me to really consider buying.Not sure if I even like that kind of toning the Morgan is showing. I only have a few toned coins and none of them are irredescent like these.There's really only one I have doubts about.I wonder just how many are out there?

[lehigh96]

I can honestly say that if any of these coins were in an AT/NT guessing thread, I would have said AT on every single one of them. No hesitation. How these got into PCGS holders is beyond me.

 

Let me preface my post by saying that I am not defending these coins or the sellers. However, I don't understand how you can make that statement by simply viewing some obviously over saturated photos. If they were obvious AT jobs, they wouldn't have fooled anybody, and certainly not the graders at NGC & PCGS as well as some of the very experienced members of the TCCS. Here is a link to the original thread about the 1880-O Morgan Dollar.

 

My MOOSE 1888-O

 

FWIW, I can make an NT look very AT in a few seconds simply by increasing the saturation of the photo.

 

 

 

The reason these coins are so dangerous is because the AT job is so convincing. Some of the coins are obvious AT, but others are so good, there is no way to tell. That is what is scary about it.

[michael]

it is a shame that the sellers of AT coins and the makers of AT coins lie and say they did not know/plead ignorance/hide behind clever words and smoke and mirrors/excuses all to make a buck on their fellow collectors again hiding behind this highly subjective totally unregulated market

 

the current market for toned business strike mintstate morgans be they AT or NT will be in MUCHO less demand

 

evenmoreso with toned business strike mintstate silver and copper and nickel coins post 1915

 

even some top services are slabbing not only blantantly/highly questionable toned coins but ugly ones to boot with their market acceptable caviat

 

never in all my years of looking at toned coins have i seen so many all in one place for sale in different venues the last few years many times moreso than what i saw post 2000 going back to the 1960's TOTAL

 

most all are ugly to boot even if they are NT which THEY ARE NOT

 

IT WILL DEFINATELY KILL THE DEMAND FOR NT BUSINESS STRIKE MINTSTATE MORGANS AND DITTO POST 1915 COINS BUSINESS STRIKE MINTSTATE

 

 

[RareSov]

Nearly all those coins look

 

Except for a few I liked, which were definitely NT

[kryptonitecomics]

Like Lehigh was saying....contrary to what several folks posted in this thread....to the trained eye....several of the coins in this thread are deceptively good. If I saw one of those slabbed Morgans at a show.....I believe I could have been dupped myself and I am pretty confident in my AT/NT radar. We tend to let our guards down a bit once a coin get's in the holder becuase the experts have blessed the coin.

 

For any of you that feel like toning similar to what is found on some of these Morgans does not occur naturally then you just have not seen true bag toned rainbow Morgans becuase they can absolutely be found with similar colors.

 

If these coins weren't being certified and had some of the crazy colors found on those Ebay coins we all laugh at then there would be no reason to sound the alarm. Since some of these coins are amazingly good to the point of only sticking out when looking at several pieces at the same time.......the coin collecting community should be concerned.

 

For those that don't like toned coins and aren't concerned with what has been brought forward here, how would you feel if a coin doctor found a way to whiz coins where it could not be detected....whether it be by laser etching or what have you? The coin market would be in big trouble.......

[gpnyc]

I can honestly say that if any of these coins were in an AT/NT guessing thread, I would have said AT on every single one of them. No hesitation. How these got into PCGS holders is beyond me.

If that's the case, you would probably also condemn many naturally toned coins, as well.

 

Maybe so. One look at my sets will tell you I prefer toned coins over white ones. However I will stand by my statement that of the coins pictured earlier in this thread, I like none. Obviously this is going off of images which may or may not have been manipulated and my opinion could change if I had the coins in hand.

[James_OldeTowne]

I understand and respect anyone's opinion if they like those coins in the first post. For that matter, it honestly, truly does not bother me if someone enjoys collecting AT coins. I know of at least several collectors who actually do like coins with crazy colors that could only have been applied with a blowtorch (exaggerating only a little). It is not for me to disparage what other folks enjoy.

 

I have seen in the past posts that ridicule colorized coins, and even that doesn't bother me. There simply are people who really do like them. A wide variety of collecting interests and perspectives is unquestionably healthy for the collecting community.

 

As for me, I do not like even a single one of those coins in the O.P., and I couldn't care less how many of them (if any) are NT. There's a point at which color is just too distracting, whether it got there by natural or artificial means.

 

But that's just me. For those who like neon colors, I am glad you've found your niche.

 

Really, I think the whole "NT vs. AT" argument is terribly overblown.

[gpnyc]

I can honestly say that if any of these coins were in an AT/NT guessing thread, I would have said AT on every single one of them. No hesitation. How these got into PCGS holders is beyond me.

 

Let me preface my post by saying that I am not defending these coins or the sellers. However, I don't understand how you can make that statement by simply viewing some obviously over saturated photos.

 

With nothing else to go on, yes, I am basing my opinion on the photos. Opinion does not equal statement of fact. Right or wrong the photos scream "AT! Run away!" to me.

 

I am not a big fan of the 1888-O you linked to either. Please educate those of us who don't believe a coin can tone that way naturally without any help at all. Why are you so confident it is NT? This is not a slam and please don't interpret it as so. I really want to know.

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't believe he is saying that 1888-O is NT.....we believe it to be AT and from the same batch I pictured on the first page of this thread.

 

As far as how coins similar to those I posted could be NT.....very simple. Decades spent in bank bags ladden with sulfer can and has caused unbelievable rainbow toning on Morgans. This is a known fact and has been for quite some time. There are plenty of older collectors and dealer who have purchased originally mint sealed or more accurately described bank sealed bags of Morgans that sat undisturbed for as many as 70 to 80 years.

 

When these bags were opened some truly amazing and colorful coins were pulled out and yes neon colors absolutely can happen naturally unless you don't consider 80 years of storage in a bank bag as natural.

 

For those that want further proof of this I would point you to Sunnywood's Registry set which contains some of the finest toned Morgans known to man.

 

Sunnywood's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" Toned Morgans

 

 

Additionally here are a few links to a couple of Morgan Dollar hoards that yielded some pretty spectacular examples of toned Morgans. If you choose to believe that all of these coins are fairy tales with made up stories then I can't stop you but...... that doesn't make these hoards which are 100% documented any less legit. (thumbs u

 

 

NGC Certifies the Battle Creek Collection of Morgan Silver Dollars

 

 

The Continental-Illinois National Bank Hoard