I just realized something..

[stinkycheese1]

I had a dream the other day and had a light bulb go off in my head.

 

My instructor at the ANA counterfeit class I took and in many of his articles he writes that depressions on counterfeit coins (which are legitiment contact marks on the sacrificed coin to make the transfer dies) on US gold, often have luster in them because the coin is struck and metal flows into the space and fills it with luster, since it was struck.

 

Now, if we think about luster. Luster is caused by light reflecting off die flow lines when a coin is made correct? Throughout die states of coins gives different amounts of luster, from satin, to semi PL (slightly worn dies) where the die flow lines may be visible in certain die states. A good example of a LDS (late die state) is the early saints. Most 1908 saints have satiny luster, rather than lustrous blazing luster the later dates have. This is from a worn die.

 

Getting back to the depressions and luster, since the counterfeit coins are struck and luster flows in, this does mean because they have luster there are die flow lines *In* the depressions? Is this correct? Because I made a counterfeit thread detection on coin talk and one person said there are no die flow lines in depressions, while others said that is a sign a coin is counterfeit. On the other hand, geniune coins can have mint made deprssions but very rarely do they have luster in them. I wonder why this is? I think it's because the depressions on geniune coins are from mint flaws, not contact marks from the transfer dies coins.

 

Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.

 

Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question

[michael]

 

great write-up my friend.....................

 

 

makes sence to me and i agree!

 

 

 

the services use this as one way of telling counterfeits

[coinman1794]

 

Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.

 

Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question

 

A defect on any die, counterfeit or real, will have flow lines in the depression and blend in with the rest of the coin, and, so will a strike-thru. The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; but it merely can in some cases.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.

 

Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question

 

A defect on any die, counterfeit or real, will have flow lines in the depression and blend in with the rest of the coin, and, so will a strike-thru. The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; but it merely can in some cases.

 

A defect on any die, counterfeit or real (are we talking counterfeit dies here?) will have flow lines in the depression (are we still talking about the dies here?)

 

The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; Ugh, HULK, HEAD HURT.

[EZ_E]

Good write up. I had never thought of that.

 

A good example of a LDS is the early saints.

 

But, I'm confused. Shouldn't that be Latter Day Saints instead of early saints?

[michael]

 

only if you join them victor

[coinman1794]

 

Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.

 

Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question

 

A defect on any die, counterfeit or real, will have flow lines in the depression and blend in with the rest of the coin, and, so will a strike-thru. The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; but it merely can in some cases.

 

A defect on any die, counterfeit or real (are we talking counterfeit dies here?) will have flow lines in the depression (are we still talking about the dies here?)

 

The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; Ugh, HULK, HEAD HURT.

 

I'm not sure what your point was, but the presence of a depression on a gold coin measn that the dies that struck it had a raised defect, whether or not those dies were counterfiet. It is one thing to point to a specific, known, documented fake that had a certain defect, and quite another to suggest that any gold coin with depressions is counterfiet. Thats what I was saying.

[stinkycheese1]

Coinman,

 

At my counterfeit detection class I took brian silliman said because of that fact, finding a depression alone on a coin is not enough to deem it counterfeit. Finding many depressions on a coin can, as well as finding other signs (tool marks, spikes from the denticals, raised lumps, (But in 3% case these are on geniune coins, too), mushy details, fat letters, loss of detail, etc.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

coinman1794…this is what you said, “The presence of a depression on a gold coin does mean it's counterfiet; but it merely can in some cases.”

 

Should the word “doesn’t” need to be inserted for the word “does”

 

This is what totally lost me.

[Conder101]

Typically a depression on a genuine coin comes either as a contact mark which will not show the same surfaces inside the contact mark as on the surrounding area, or as the result of a strike through. In the case of a strike through once again the area inside the depression has been kept away from the die flowlines of the surrounding area and so it will not have the same surfaces/flowlines. Kevin is correct, counterfeits struck from dies that have a raised spot on them which creates a depression on the coin WILL tend the have the same appearance and flowlines inside the depression as in the surrounding area. Smaller or deeper depressions may not show this though while broader and shallower depressions are more likely to show it.