Was the double dime doomed to failure from the start?

[shirohniichan]

I recently read Paul Green's article on 20 cent pieces in Numismatic News, and he argues the coin was "short lived for good reasons." The standard assessment of the US double dime is that it was a political payoff to western silver interests. Supposedly it was unnecessary and unwanted, like the trade dollar.

 

Do you agree? We know that it failed because it was only struck for circulation for 2 years, but was it doomed to failure from the get-go ?

[World Colonial]

Would one of those good reasons be due to the quarter? There are plenty of other currencies with a 20 cent piece, but I'm not aware that they a 25 cent coin also.

[Conder101]

The major argument in favor of the twenty cent piece was that it was impossible to make change for a dime when a quarter was tendered because of a lack of one and five cent pieces. If a twenty cent piece was tendered change of a dime could be given.

 

Of course that argument ignored the fact that it would still be impossible to make chang for the quarter if the buyer didn't have a twenty cent piece. It would also still be impossible to make change if a twenty cent piece was tendered for a fifteen cent purchase. The real sensible solution to the problem would have been to let the branch mints strike one and five cent pieces. It would have solved the small change problem by providing small change.

[relicsncoins]

How about the simplist of solutions.........It suffered the same problem as the Susie B. It was two simmilar in size to a quarter. Also, wasn't reeding originally put on coins to stop unscrupilous types from shaving silver off the edge of coins.

[James_OldeTowne]

It was doomed from the start, as was the Stella, and any other attempt to commit the United States to a "metric system" for silver (and gold). Here is a text-only copy (it formats better in the printed catalog) of the first page of my description for a Stella in a recent auction, and it may help explain why the 20c was doomed, and really should be looked upon as a "circulating pattern" (all my opinion, of course):

 

France, as part of their continuing effort to arrest declining global political fortunes and monetary prestige, had already convinced Belgium to adopt the French franc in 1830, and Switzerland embraced the standard in 1848, joined also by Italy in 1861. By a convention dated December 23, 1865, the agreement was formalized when the union of the four European powers agreed to abide their national currencies by a standard of 4.5 grams of silver to 0.290322 grams of gold, a fixed ratio of 15.5 to 1, which would allow hard currency between the nations to be freely interchangeable. Made official on August 1, 1866, Bulgaria and Greece acceded in 1868, and six other countries would be members of the Latin Monetary Union before 1889. Included in the provisions of the agreement were a set monetary conversion fee of 1.25%, and limits on how many coins could be minted by each member nation. In effect, by abiding by the standards, any country’s coins could circulate freely and on par within any other country who was a member of the LMU, minus the nominal handling fee. Indeed, other countries came to adopt the metric standard without ever becoming official members of the LMU.

 

The Latin Monetary Union Metric System called for member countries to mint coins according to the following fixed metric system standards:

 

Unit Weight / composition

0.5 2.5000 gram 0.835 silver (0.0671 oz.)

1 5.0000 gram 0.835 silver (0.1342 oz.)

2 10.0000 gram 0.835 silver (0.2685 oz.)

5 25.0000 gram 0.900 silver (0.7234 oz.)

10 3.2258 gram 0.900 gold (0.0933 oz.)

20 6.4516 gram 0.900 gold (0.1867 oz.)

50 16.1290 gram 0.900 gold (0.4667 oz.)

100 32.2580 gram 0.900 gold (0.9334 oz.)

 

The discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill in 1848, caused vast amounts of American gold to find its way into the international market, depressing its value in terms of silver coin. Stated another way, silver soared in value by comparison to gold, and it became profitable to melt silver coins since their intrinsic worth exceeded face value. Minor currency disappeared from circulation in the United States by the 1850s, even despite attempts to stem hoarding by decreasing the weight of silver coins in 1853.

 

During the 1870s, the converse took place, as silver from the Comstock Lode and other Nevada mines flooded the world markets and decreased the value of silver. In addition, to the consternation of silver mine owners in the United States, the Fourth Coinage Act was enacted by Congress in 1873 (the “Crime of ‘73”), embracing the gold standard and demonetizing silver. This brought an end to the silver dollar as the basic unit of domestic commerce (and introduced the Trade dollar for use in international commerce), and considerably lessened the amount of silver the mints had to buy for coinage, which in turn lay waste to silver mining industry profits.

 

Silver’s decline in value prompted a severe influx of silver coinage into the LMU members’ circulation during this time period, and union members attempted to limit free conversion of silver, but these efforts failed. By 1878, minting of silver coins was suspended, and from then on, the LMU was on a de-facto gold standard.

 

In 1879, the Honorable John A. Kasson, U. S. minister to Austria, conceived of a plan to fix the ratio between silver and gold, end the problem of precious metal price fluctuation, and simultaneously introduce a coin that could prove acceptable for use in Europe – the gold stella – by stating its metallic content in the metric system. The coin was struck for only two years, ending in 1880 when Congress was forced to admit that a four dollar denomination was a superfluous addition to the $2.50, $3.00 and $5.00 denominations already in existence. The coins remained popular only as collector items thereafter.

 

(excerpt truncated)

[fishfinder]

Also, in the eastern US, small-change transactions were largely satisfied by Fractional Currency notes.

[michael]

always got confused with the quarter this was the main reason it was eliminated

 

as making a mistake cost you a nickel which was a large amount of money back in 1875

 

you either got it in change as a quarter after a purchase--giver is the loser

 

 

or you took it as a quarter for someone paying you for something--the giver wins

[shirohniichan]

In researching period writings I have discovered enough evidence to make a strong case that the double dime was wanted and could have worked.

 

Should I publish my findings in a journal or wait until I finish my book?

[RWB]

Wait for the book. Then you can put in all the supporting bits to make the argument work; an article will not allow that. Plus, most coin articles simply vanish - a book tends to become a lasting resource, particularly when the subject is a short coinage issue.

[shirohniichan]

The biggest problem I have in finishing the book is knowing when to stop researching. There's always another letter or other source out there I'd like to gey my hands on.

 

Oh well, I guess I can always write based on what I have and publish a second edition (or a retraction) when I find more info.

[physics-fan3.14]

I can't wait to read your book!

[shirohniichan]

I just got the Numismatist article today. No, that's not me behind the abacus.

 

[RWB]

For a "short" topic, such as the 20-cent piece, I'd recommend including as much as you can. This will not only make your book a "needed resource” for auction houses and dealers, but the extra information might lead someone else to additional insights or these coins or others. (I'm assuming primary sources, not The Numismatist.)

[Coin]

A quarter is 1/4th , a half is 1/2 , a dime is 1/10th , the half-di(s)me is 1/20th , the cent is 1/100th , then what was the 1/5th denomination called?

 

Also the 3 cent is nicknamed a trime , or 'trickle' depending on year and metallic content.....what was the 2 cent called?

 

The 100% , or 'whole' is referred to as a dollar , along with nicknames along the way such as cartwheels , and those based on designer or type like Morgan , Eisenhower ,Eagle, Double Eagle , SBA , Presidential , or content such as Silver , Gold , Platinum , Palladium ,etc ( I'm not including colonials like Spanish and English or any other early stuff , nor Trade coins)

 

We no longer use terms like 'bits' .....our comparison to value to whatever else system has changed as fast as the basis for comparison for value .

 

Our coinage although not really metric , I think , has stood the test of time , regardless of how disorganized some might say it is....I say it has just been flexible .

 

 

So , What is the nickname for the 20 cent (1/5th dollar ) ?

....and the 2 cent (1/50th dollar) .....( I'm not even gonna try to figure out the 3 cent 1/33-ish? )

 

[shirohniichan]

A quarter is 1/4th , a half is 1/2 , a dime is 1/10th , the half-di(s)me is 1/20th , the cent is 1/100th , then what was the 1/5th denomination called?

 

I'll take the fifth on that.

 

In the 18th century references I've read, the proposed 20-cent piece was called a "quint".

[Coin]

Quint sounds good to me , so the 2 cent would be just a tint?

 

Well a centennial is a 100 ? (Cent for short , maybe?) a Tercentennial is , what , 300? or is it Tri-centennial , whereas a Bicentennial is 200 ...a Sesquicentennial is what , 150? I get those all wrong when I'm too lazy to look them up .

 

....owww , my head hurts now....

[physics-fan3.14]

I've always heard the 2-center called a "deuce."

 

Cool about the "quint," I'd never heard that but it makes sense!

[shirohniichan]

I cracked up when I read Paul Green's recent article in Numismatic News regarding the 20 cent piece in defense of the Eisenhower dollar:

 

"In fairness, the United States in its history has produced other coins that had relatively little purpose. The 20-cent piece, for example, certainly stands out in that group as it was a silver coin that could do absolutely nothing in circulation that could not be accomplished by two dimes."

 

I guess the double dime was an idea worse than the Ike buck.

[leeg]

The biggest problem I have in finishing the book is knowing when to stop researching. There's always another letter or other source out there I'd like to gey my hands on.

 

That's the exact problem I'm having with my Classic Commerative Book. When is enough, enough.

 

 

I can also appreciate a nice 20 Cent Piece:

 

 

[nunfa0]

The Canadian 20 cent was even shorter lived, with only 1 issue in 1858 and only 730,392 minted.