CAC Sticker on NGC Star Slabs

[Bugmann1974]

Yes, in fact I am. My day doesn't usually free up untill about 7-8PM central time. I do not work for myself so I cannot just jump on the phone at any given time.

 

Dear Ray- I'm here all day if you would like to call. A 5 minute conversation would take me an hour in an email.

 

Here is a good compromise. While he is taking a break from the grading room, he can dictate a message to Michelle Kumpf and she can forward it to me. That way he can rest his eyes and doesn't have to physicly type the message.

[MarkFeld]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

[DirtyGoldMan]

You guys are silly. JA is very approachable and responsive. It appears that he prefers contact by phone. When I had a question, I called him, and he promptly returned my call.

 

[coinman1794]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

 

Star coins usually sell for more, and CAC coins usually sell for more. I dont comprehend?

[MarkFeld]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

 

Star coins usually sell for more, and CAC coins usually sell for more. I dont comprehend?

My point is that posted bids for NGC/CAC coins are/will be the same, whether the NGC star was/is included or not.

 

And it doesn't matter how many graders unanimously agree with a star designation. Like numerical grading itself, it (extra eye-appeal) is subjective, so there is inevitable inconsistency involved.

[prudden]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

 

Yup.That's really all it comes down to.Unless CAC refuses to sticker all NGC "Star" coins then it really is implied agreement with the designation.

[kryptonitecomics]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

 

Star coins usually sell for more, and CAC coins usually sell for more. I dont comprehend?

My point is that posted bids for NGC/CAC coins are/will be the same, whether the NGC star was/is included or not.

 

And it doesn't matter how many graders unanimously agree with a star designation. Like numerical grading itself, it (extra eye-appeal) is subjective, so there is inevitable inconsistency involved.

 

Are you referring to site unseen bids? I can always get more for coins with stars so I would think a coin with a star and CAC sticker would sell for even more than a coin with just either or...... By the way I agree completely that the star is quite subjective....I have found many of my coins that I thought had superior eye appeal did not receive a star and some coins that I thought were average got the star

[MarkFeld]

A sticker with ambiguous and unclear meaning is being applied to a star with an ambiguous and unclear meaning.

 

Since no one really knows the criteria for either being applied, why not just put them both on any coin that you like.

Technically, every "star" itself that is awarded should automatically pass (though not the grade necessarily), since the criteria for the star actually are known, and are not ambiguous. Presence of the star indicates that all three graders unanimously felt the coin had unusually superior eye appeal.

 

While the notion of "superior eye appeal" is rooted in opinion, the notion that all three graders possessed this opinion is rooted in fact. In other words, if the star is there, then it is a fact that all three graders agreed on the designation. It is not a subjective issue that can pass or fail stickerability.

 

To make a long story short, CAC must ignore the star designation, in my opinion.

.

 

If CAC ignores the Star designation and adds a sticker, they are ignoring part of NGCs product. You have to take the complete package, star and all, into consideration if you are going to give your blessing to it. The only way to do what you are saying, James, would be for CAC to refuse to evaluate NGC Star coins, as they do not have a waver printed on their hologram that says, "We like it, accept for..." or "We mostly agree with it." You cant add your sticker to something that has not been fully considered.

You folks can debate this issue on and on and on if you care to. But on a practical basis, it doesn't matter whether CAC is (also) recognizing the NGC star designation or not. That's because there aren't any separate/different/higher bids for star coins as opposed to non-star coins. It really is as simple as that.

 

Star coins usually sell for more, and CAC coins usually sell for more. I dont comprehend?

My point is that posted bids for NGC/CAC coins are/will be the same, whether the NGC star was/is included or not.

 

And it doesn't matter how many graders unanimously agree with a star designation. Like numerical grading itself, it (extra eye-appeal) is subjective, so there is inevitable inconsistency involved.

 

Are you referring to site unseen bids? I can always get more for coins with stars so I would think a coin with a star and CAC sticker would sell for even more than a coin with just either or...... By the way I agree completely that the star is quite subjective....I have found many of my coins that I thought had superior eye appeal did not receive a star and some coins that I thought were average got the star

Shane, yes, I am refering to sight-unseen bids, but which which often affect sight-seen bids, since the former serves as a price floor.

[coinman1794]

One cannot deny that sheets have a major effect on most prices, but I'm equally reticent to penalize the value of a nice Star coin because the sheets are behind the times, or otherwise incapable of following such changes in coin grading as the Star. Sheets also do not reflect the vlaue of extremely nice coins in general, which can sell for many multiples of retail.

[Mark T]

One cannot deny that sheets have a major effect on most prices, but I'm equally reticent to penalize the value of a nice Star coin because the sheets are behind the times, or otherwise incapable of following such changes in coin grading as the Star. Sheets also do not reflect the vlaue of extremely nice coins in general, which can sell for many multiples of retail.

 

I am in agreement with you on this. It would be a good move for them to list bid/ask for a star designation , however I don’t think omitting it has that much of an effect on the prices realized for those coins. From what I have seen, star coins always get a premium. I have one star coin, it is an MS66 1930 FH SLQ. The eye appeal of the coin is outstanding.

The grey sheets should also consider listing values for CAC certified coins.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

JA is very approachable and responsive. It appears that he prefers contact by phone.

I agree with this, and actually, I have successfully communicated with John at least three times via eMail.

[coinman1794]

I dont think anyone is capable of tracking the varied prices that exceptional coins bring, in comparison to generic ones. It's complicated on too many levels, and too subjective.

[Catbert]

I am posting the e-mail exchange that I received from CAC this morning reflecting JA's comments on the NGC Star Designation. I stand corrected!

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Dear Dan:

 

Listed below is a note from John regarding your email.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Michelle

 

- - - - - - - -

Dear Dan-

 

I haven't given this topic much thought until your recent email. I'm 99% certain that I haven't seen a star designated coin that I didn't think had excellent eye appeal. So...., I would say "yes", CAC agrees with the NGC star designation on CAC stickered coins. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to call.

 

Thanks you for bringing this to my attention

 

John

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

Michelle Kumpf

 

CAC

 

908-781-9101 (phone)

 

908-781-0746 (fax)

 

michelle.kumpf@caccoin.com

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

From: (e-mail address deleted)

Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:28 PM

To: info@caccoin.com

Subject: The CAC Sticker and NGC Star Coins

 

 

There is much debate on the NGC forums regarding how CAC addresses NGC Star coins.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3352875&nt=3&fpart=1

 

Can you either post there or provide me with the answer so I may post the information? The issue centers around whether the CAC sticker validates not only that the coin is an "A" or "B" coin, but also that it has exceptional eye appeal (the NGC Star definition).

 

My understanding of your service is that you do not validate NGC's determination of eye appeal. Thus, if an NGC Star coin possesses a CAC green sticker, it only represents that it is accurate for the grade.

 

Please respond so your service is clarified.

 

Best,

 

Dan (name deleted)

 

 

 

[gmarguli]

I'm 99% certain that I haven't seen a star designated coin that I didn't think had excellent eye appeal. So...., I would say "yes", CAC agrees with the NGC star designation on CAC stickered coins.

 

John

 

Doesn't the Star designation mean EXCEPTIONAL EYE APPEAL and not "excellent eye appeal". Two clearly different standards.

[physics-fan3.14]

This seems like sort of a whimsical reply on the part of Albanese. "Hmm, I hadn't thought about it, but sure, why not?" It doesn't seem to inspire confidence.

[MarkFeld]

This seems like sort of a whimsical reply on the part of Albanese. "Hmm, I hadn't thought about it, but sure, why not?" It doesn't seem to inspire confidence.

Would you prefer that confidence be inspired based on a BS reply from him, instead of an honest one? And, as I noted earlier in this thread, on a practical basis, it doesn't matter if CAC is recognizing the NGC star or not. The designation is subjective and there are no distinct/higher published bids for star coins.

[physics-fan3.14]

This seems like sort of a whimsical reply on the part of Albanese. "Hmm, I hadn't thought about it, but sure, why not?" It doesn't seem to inspire confidence.

Would you prefer that confidence be inspired based on a BS reply from him, instead of an honest one? And, as I noted earlier in this thread, on a practical basis, it doesn't matter if CAC is recognizing the NGC star or not. The designation is subjective and there are no distinct/higher published bids for star coins.

 

No, I would not prefer a BS reply. It just seems like something he would have considered when starting this venture. If you are going to be validating the opinion of the two TPGs, it would seem like the star would be an important part of that opinion. NGC has slabbed enough star coins that its not an obscure designation. Its just like FBL, FH, etc., as part of the TPG grade. To have not considered it at all, and to reply to an email 2 years into the venture with such a seemingly flippant response tends to erode confidence in the venture.

 

This is my opinion.

[Tradedollarnut]

This seems like sort of a whimsical reply on the part of Albanese. "Hmm, I hadn't thought about it, but sure, why not?" It doesn't seem to inspire confidence.

Would you prefer that confidence be inspired based on a BS reply from him, instead of an honest one? And, as I noted earlier in this thread, on a practical basis, it doesn't matter if CAC is recognizing the NGC star or not. The designation is subjective and there are no distinct/higher published bids for star coins.

 

No, I would not prefer a BS reply. It just seems like something he would have considered when starting this venture. If you are going to be validating the opinion of the two TPGs, it would seem like the star would be an important part of that opinion. NGC has slabbed enough star coins that its not an obscure designation. Its just like FBL, FH, etc., as part of the TPG grade. To have not considered it at all, and to reply to an email 2 years into the venture with such a seemingly flippant response tends to erode confidence in the venture.

 

This is my opinion.

 

The NGC star is completely different from the others as it has no set standard, is completely subjective - and has no published bids whatsoever.

[gmarguli]

And, as I noted earlier in this thread, on a practical basis, it doesn't matter if CAC is recognizing the NGC star or not. The designation is subjective and there are no distinct/higher published bids for star coins.

 

Sure, that is true for now, but when we go to sell our coins in the future...

 

 

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

 

The NGC star is completely different from the others as it has no set standard, is completely subjective - and has no published bids whatsoever.

 

I agree completely. But that does not change the fact that it is a well established and recognized part of the NGC opinion. And despite the fact that it has no published bids, it definitely garners a premium on the market. Heck, FBL prices aren't published in the Greysheet, but everyone knows they garner a premium. Published prices are a guidline, and as we all know, are often quite out of sync with market reality.

[Catbert]

If you are going to be validating the opinion of the two TPGs, it would seem like the star would be an important part of that opinion. NGC has slabbed enough star coins that its not an obscure designation. Its just like FBL, FH, etc., as part of the TPG grade. To have not considered it at all, and to reply to an email 2 years into the venture with such a seemingly flippant response tends to erode confidence in the venture.

 

This is my opinion.

 

I too was surprised that he had not considered it before now. I agree with your sentiments.

[MarkFeld]

..... Its just like FBL, FH, etc., as part of the TPG grade. .

 

 

The NGC star is completely different from the others as it has no set standard, is completely subjective - and has no published bids whatsoever.

 

I agree completely. But that does not change the fact that it is a well established and recognized part of the NGC opinion. And despite the fact that it has no published bids, it definitely garners a premium on the market. Heck, FBL prices aren't published in the Greysheet, but everyone knows they garner a premium. Published prices are a guidline, and as we all know, are often quite out of sync with market reality.

I don't see how to reconcile your two posts above.

 

FBL prices are published in the Bluesheet, as are FH prices. And there are often separate bids posted on CCE for coins with those designations, as well. They are also included in census reports. On the other hand, NGC star coins aren't listed anywhere.

[physics-fan3.14]

FBL and * are the same as parts of the NGC grade decision, and any evaluation must consider both. They are different in that one has a standard and one doesn't. I see no contradiction in my statements.

[MarkFeld]

FBL and * are the same as parts of the NGC grade decision, and any evaluation must consider both. They are different in that one has a standard and one doesn't. I see no contradiction in my statements.

In one post you wrote that the star was "just like" the other designations, but when, as part of a post, TDN said it was "completely different", you replied in part "I agree completely".

[physics-fan3.14]

Mark, I explained the dichotomy in my previous post. I'm failing to see what you are getting at.

[Tradedollarnut]

And despite the fact that it has no published bids, it definitely garners a premium on the market.

 

I agree that * coins garner a premium over ordinary NGC graded coins - but less of a premium than CAC stickered NGC graded coins I would think.

 

So really the * is financially irrelevant once the CAC sticker goes on... unless you think that CAC stickered * coins bring more than CAC stickered non star coins, which I'm not so sure of.

[dean1345]

There are very few Indian Head Cent proofs that have the NGC star designation. I bet there are more CAC stickers on IHC proofs than stars. I would pay the premium for a star over a CAC. To each their own.

[gmarguli]

So really the * is financially irrelevant once the CAC sticker goes on... unless you think that CAC stickered * coins bring more than CAC stickered non star coins, which I'm not so sure of.

 

Since the Star and the CAC sticker are used for different reasons, there is no reason to assume that the CAC sticker would nullify the Star premium. In fact, when it comes to toned coins, I highly doubt that a CAC sticker would warrant any premium even close to that of the eye appeal (Star) premium. The CAC may outright be ignored.

[Tradedollarnut]

So really the * is financially irrelevant once the CAC sticker goes on... unless you think that CAC stickered * coins bring more than CAC stickered non star coins, which I'm not so sure of.

 

Since the Star and the CAC sticker are used for different reasons, there is no reason to assume that the CAC sticker would nullify the Star premium. In fact, when it comes to toned coins, I highly doubt that a CAC sticker would warrant any premium even close to that of the eye appeal (Star) premium. The CAC may outright be ignored.

 

which I'm not so sure of.

 

I assumed nothing.

[gmarguli]

So really the * is financially irrelevant once the CAC sticker goes on... unless you think that CAC stickered * coins bring more than CAC stickered non star coins, which I'm not so sure of.

 

Since the Star and the CAC sticker are used for different reasons, there is no reason to assume that the CAC sticker would nullify the Star premium. In fact, when it comes to toned coins, I highly doubt that a CAC sticker would warrant any premium even close to that of the eye appeal (Star) premium. The CAC may outright be ignored.

 

which I'm not so sure of.

 

I assumed nothing.

 

Correct, you didn't assume, you stated your opinion that So really the * is financially irrelevant once the CAC sticker goes on and qualified this opinion with unless you think that CAC stickered * coins bring more than CAC stickered non star coins which opinion you cleared didn't agree with by saying, which I'm not so sure of.