Would you pay the same for your coins if the grading services didn't exist?

[truthteller]

When I was younger, I was very wary about paying multiples of 'sheet' to buy a superb coin. In fact, pretty and high grade coins were very, very difficult to find. With the advent of the grading services, pretty and high grade coins are everywhere. I am now very comfortable paying multiples of sheet for super colored coins, in or out of a holder. The problem lies, that a dealer won't sell me a super coin unless it's graded. I tell them, the coin doesn't need to be graded, just put a price on it. But no go. Then, if the coin doesn't grade right, they won't sell me the coin. Now here begs the question, the grading services won't be around forever, so do you feel comfortable enough to pay a certain amount of money for a holdered coin knowing that one day the services will be gone and it will become 'raw' again? I guess this question is for those who keep coins long term.

 

 

TRUTH

[Wihlborg]

The problem lies, that a dealer won't sell me a super coin unless it's graded. I tell them, the coin doesn't need to be graded, just put a price on it. But no go.

 

I also have had this happen to me a couple of times. IMO the reason is simple. It is because the dealer is hoping to hit the grading lotto and doesn't want to sell the coin until he is sure that the grading companies will not grade the coin higher than he does.

 

Now here begs the question, the grading services won't be around forever, so do you feel comfortable enough to pay a certain amount of money for a holdered coin knowing that one day the services will be gone and it will become 'raw' again?

 

I do feel comfortable with the price I will pay for a coin, because I will only pay what I feel the coin is worth to me, reguardless of if the coin is in a holder or not.

 

John

[GDJMSP]

I too have to agree that if a dealer refuses to sell you an ungraded coin it is because he is afraid of letting it go too cheaply. But it doesn't matter to me - I'll pay what I'll pay slabbed or not.

 

I buy a lot of raw coins and I don't submit them to be slabbed - ever. But I only buy raw coins when I am confident in my own ability to judge if the coin is authentic and fairly priced.

 

I also buy a lot of slabbed coins - but this is not because of the grade on the slab. It is because the coin is available as slabbed and I think it fairly priced. True - I really like the protection a slab affords. And yes there are times when I am not confident in my own ability judge if a coin is authentic so then I prefer to buy a slabbed coin. But again - not because of the grade but because of the guarantee of authenticity.

 

Personally I think the services will be around until long after I'm gone. So whether a coin is slabbed or not has no bearing on what I'll pay for it as long as I am confident it is authentic.

[goose3]

your post brings up an interesting subject that relates to many of my coins. I collect Key date coins and I like them in all sorts of grades so long as problem free. Grade to me is not an issue so much as "look".

 

It doesn't matter to me if it's my G6 chain or my AU50 '56 FE or my MS63RB 55/55, the reason I bought and buy many of my coins already slabbed is because it makes me feel a bit better knowing that someone else's opinion is in the ballpark of what I think.

 

When I buy a coin for my key date collection I don't buy it for registry points. I buy it for me.

My own sort of rule of thumb for me is to not buy any slabbed coin that is not worth the same amount raw.

 

There was a thread a while back across the street about a 1970 ms68? quarter that was over 2,000.00.....if that coin was laying in a flip at a show, just how many people would pay 2,000.00 for it? ZERO. I'm not knocking moderns but unfortunately they are easy to find examples of.

 

To answer your question. Yes I would pay the same but would be a bit more careful and more informed, especially concerning key dates.

 

I just bought a Nice Raw 32d quarter a couple of weeks ago in roughly VG.

[truthteller]

I think NGC will be around much longer than PCGS. NGC doesn't have the liability out there like PCGS does. I also think PCGS will go under when lawsuits come out of the woodwork. I might change my mind if PCGS were to go private again, but it would probably bankrupt before that happens.

 

 

TRUTH

[Tradedollarnut]

There is very little chance of PCGS going bankrupt. Creeping grade inflation serves to limit a lot of liability - at both services.

 

No. I would not pay the same amount I pay for my coins if they were raw. The grade on the holder provides a degree of protection and liquidity that a raw coin does not enjoy.

[sanmary]

I do not know how long the grading services will survive, but I feel very comfortable and confident purchasing raw coins in series that I am knowledgable. I do like the 'liquid' factor that slabs offer as I only keep about 1 in 20 coins that I purchase for my personal collection. However, I usually will not pay as much for a raw coin as it isn't as liquidable.

[Fairlaneman]

A good Read untill this.......

 

I think NGC will be around much longer than PCGS. NGC doesn't have the liability out there like PCGS does. I also think PCGS will go under when lawsuits come out of the woodwork. I might change my mind if PCGS were to go private again, but it would probably bankrupt before that happens.

 

 

TRUTH

 

Was the thread title "Who will go Broke First"? [!@#%^&^] !! stay on topic with your own threads.

 

NO...

[jom]

No. I would not pay the same amount I pay for my coins if they were raw. The grade on the holder provides a degree of protection and liquidity that a raw coin does not enjoy.

 

The question is whether you'd pay the same if the services didn't exist. Which means "the holder provides.." is meaningless since the services wouldn't be there. So the liquidity would be the same, whatever it was, all around since ALL coins would be raw.

 

The "degree of protection" would be my (and everyone else's) KNOWLEDGE about their particular series. TDN, for example, I'm sure would do quite well with his Trade Dollars since he is knowledgeable. Same with Fairlane (with Mercs) or Truth with Commems. Whether this "degree of protection" in reality exists at all with the present TPG's seems to be under debate today but the "perception" that it does seems to be there.

 

The question is whether you'd pay the same amount. Not necessarily since market would be effected by having a different dynamic as it does now with no TPG's. But I think much of the huge premiums people pay for SOME coins is due to the fact the coin is slabbed so those types of transactions may not exist without the TPG's. Knowledge about a coins series really just boils down to ONE thing: Can you price a coin (ie make an appraisal) within reason using your own skills. That's it really. It takes MANY years to develop this for even ONE series let alone many different coins. The TPG's have helped in this manner since it allows any one collector to see what the "market" thinks of any particular coin. BUT as lot as this system is abused by using it for a "fish expedition" to get the coin into the highest grade possible there will always be people who get burned by paying to much of a premium for a coin.

 

jom

[chinook]

I believe overall coin prices would be lower if not for the grading companies. This would be especially true for moderns which have no historical reference and less true for the classic rarities for which one can assess actual "rareness".

 

I think we place an additional premium on coins that have a second "professional" opinion, just as we value a second opinion when we have health concerns.

[Oldtrader3]

I do not pretend to be able to precisely grade each series of coin that I purchase (i.e. certain type set coins). Because of this, I will pay more for a TPG graded type coin than a raw coin in these issues. TPG is less of an issue for those series that I specialize in.

 

I feel generally, that TPG grades support higher prices for many coins. This is assuming of course that the coin itself meets the grade criteria that is marked on the slab. TPG is, in my opinion, a certain level of "grade insurance", at least for coins from the major grading services. TPG certainly aids in the sale of a coin.

 

Note though, that I do not collect high grade moderns and can not comment on this segment of the market.

[cladking]

I believe overall coin prices would be lower if not for the grading companies. This would be especially true for moderns which have no historical reference and less true for the classic rarities for which one can assess actual "rareness".

 

At first blush this would seem accurate, but nothing happens in a vacuum. The grading services have acted as a great stabilizing influence on the markets by their actions on the authentification, grading, and protection of coins. When moderns started getting attention in the mid-'90's it is likely that it would have been a far more dramatic shift in the hobby if not for the fact that there were millions of classics already slabbed and collected by so many people. The abuses of counterfeiters, coin doctors, and the myriad over-graders might well have relegated most classic coin collecting to a specialists and experts. We of the great unwashed would have migrated much more quickly to moderns where these abuses are much less common and often much less important.

 

The importance of "historical reference" for pricing could be easily overstated. Prices for everything are set by supply and demand so collectors who overestimate supply for a coin simply won't pay enough to acquire it. A collector who won't pay enough for any reason will simply find he won't get the coin. Rapidly rising prices will not interfere with the market so much as individuals' perceptions of it.

 

Consider that the pops for many classics are highly inaccurate because of crackouts. The prices for these coins still tend to be fairly stable or to mirror the increases of similar coins.

[Leothelion]

First off, I don't believe the grading services will ever die, the names may change but they'll never die. There's too much of a market for them. And they do serve a good purpose, those grading companies who are honest and help keep the hobby in prospective. (Is that the right word?)

Can I relate to your deliema? Well, yes I can! It's really rediculous to say the least but the registries have offset the coin market and has raised uncertainty and greed among many collectors and dealers alike. You can take it to heart or call me an arse but here's the hard fact and you have stated it yourself in your opening post.

Well maybe not but somebody mentioned it. But the fact is no-one wants to sell themselves short. The hobby is haunted with the idea that raw coins are being sold and slabbed for outrageous prices. There's wary a dealer or collector out there who is not aware of this problem. The stories are flying everywhere how bucks can be made because of the registries. But for the many who have not hit the big payoff or cannot get their coins certified to their satisfaction or are financially unable to play the crackout and resubmission game, distrust is running rampant.

Yes, I'm waiting for the bottom to hit this BS hype and then we'll all be sitting around here in amazement, talking about what happen! What goes up, must come down and this BS is going to hit hard.

 

Leo

 

[TonerGuy]

I also think PCGS will go under when lawsuits come out of the woodwork

 

 

 

hehe

 

As to answer the question, no probably not. As a relative newbie, I still like buying the higher end coins slabbed. It gives me (1) protection and (2) peace of mind knowing that the coin as been looked at by a professional and graded, somewhat, close to what the grade actually is. Since I don't purchase coins above the break, I'm not too worried about the grade. I always buy the value grade.

 

As for lower end circulated coins, I do trust my grading and will buy those coins raw, but at a price limit of perhaps $100-$200. And I would never by a raw key date for fear of it being a counterfeit.

 

I have numerous sets all in various states of completion. Raws and certified. I like the albums sometimes the best because of the challenge, but I doubt if the TPGs will ever disappear. That is unless like Truth states a lawsuit comes along and knocks it out. And I can certainly see that happening as well. Their liability grows with each and every coin graded. While a single complaint might not cause harm, but certainly a class-action could -- to the tune of millions.

 

Michael

[mdwoods]

At first I was going to say yes to your question but I recently passed on a nicely toned Sesqui commem because most of the dealers commems were slabbed except for a handful including the Sesqui. It looked fine to me and to another guy I was with but we were too chicken to take a chance and buy it raw.

[James_OldeTowne]

Honestly, certification has NO effect on what I pay for coins. However, it WOULD limit what coins I would buy. For example, I would never pay PR-69 money for a raw Proof coin, but I would pay PR-69 money for an NGC or PCGS certified coin. To me, you're really buying the slab for coins like that. A slab would have absolutely no effect on what I would pay for an EF-45 bust half, for example.

 

James