How do they do it? Totally Tangential

[Landon-migration]

Hi,

 

I am revisiting this hobby after a 30-year hiatus. A young friend of mine (he's 10) has the same passion I had when I was his age and I have found it in me to teach him what little I know, through my personal history.

 

I bought him a proof set (2009) and he kept taking it out, turning each flat over and over and over, each time like he had never seen it before. Just like I did (and still do) - then several hours later, the same routine. Went on for a week.

 

Nonetheless, one thing I discovered is that the approach to grading coins has left the subjective for objectivity. When I went to Katen's coin shop or Bonanza coins in MD, I bought coins based on eye appeal. You either think it meets the grade assigned by the dealer or you don't - totally eye appeal. Now, people purchase coins as investments based on the label, not on the coin. Are there really people who don't see the beauty, just the financial gain?

 

My question is, with the 'old' way of grading, it was pretty easy to assign a grade yourself, and in the circulated grades, this seems to still hold true. What I cannot get a handle on are the MS and PR grades - I have a devil of a time seeing the difference between PR65 and PR70, much more so between PR64 and PR65.

 

Where do I find the criteria for each grade so that I can see the difference? Or is it based on some undeniably talented individual's assessment of eye appeal? Do they use some sort of scanning software to determine the number of scratches in the fields, or is it a question of not so much the number/severity of the scratches but their location and overall impact on the coin's eye appeal?

 

Don't get me wrong - I know that the assigned grade is a result of consensus - if one grader has an off day it has a small impact on the final grade. I appreciate on one level having NGC or PCGS 'looking over my shoulder' as I try not to get taken, but when you get to the point that a regular collector like me cannot determine the grade of his/her own coins, I gotta ask questions. I want to be able to go thru my 50 year collection of proof and mint sets and assign grades to the coins, realizing that by doing so I won't increase their purchase price should I sell them (not ever) but that it's just what coin collectors, true collectors, do.

 

Buying coins, or cars, solely as an investment with no interest in them other than their value is, well, sad.

 

 

 

LJ

[TomB]

I would suggest that many folks buy today just as they had when you were younger and collecting in the 1970's. Similarly, many folks who buy today don't know how to grade coins, which is also consistent with the 1970s. I write this from some experience since I was a collector in the 1970s, too, and I know what I saw around me then just as I know what I see around me now.

 

Truly, grading coins isn't all that difficult once you see many examples of coins graded in various ranges. In my opinion, the experience of seeing accurately graded coins is the key to grading. It may take months or even years, but if one has the desire and discipline then most likely one will be able to learn how most coins are graded rather quickly and effortlessly. My response might seem to be brushing aside your concerns, but it is actually a reflection of my own experiences.

[Landon-migration]

So your answer is to look at what exists and learn from that - I can accept that... but how did the original standard get set? How did someone come up with a concrete way to make the differentiation between PR68 and 69? Who arrived at the separational criteria and how was that information relayed to the first people hired to grade coins?

 

Strange question I know, but still... curious

 

LJ

[physics-fan3.14]

It really is a good question, Landon, and an important one. Grading is a crucially important part of the hobby, and understanding how to properly grade coins is essential to success. Unfortunately I don't have the time to answer it tonight (gotta get ready for my big interview tomorrow!), but I will try to give you an answer tomorrow.

[jesbroken]

Landon, welcome to the forum. Unless you are collecting for resale or for the breakout and regrade game, then I would recommend that you purchase the MS or PR coin that has the most eye appeal to you regardless if it is an MS66 or MS67(now trust me on this you will be able to see a large difference from an MS63 to MS66 or higher). For collections and your own taste the grade shouldn't matter, only your opinion. Same as for proof. Many people have spent their lifetime collecting coins and cannot tell the difference between high end grades(proof or mint state). As long as you are not buying to resell it should not matter, but if that is not the case then much studying and learning will be ahead of you. Great luck and welcome back to numismatics.

Jim

[michael]

first of all there aint no difference between graded 69 and 70 coins but graded by pcgs there isa difference and that is price but break the coins out of their respective holders and now they are worth the same

 

resubmit those 70 coins now raw and more than likely you will get a regrade of 68-69 as you did not submit them in bulk by the thousands for the pre screening and gift of 70 grades to keep you submitting

 

pcgs

 

 

in fact the proof is in the pudding break the proof 69 and 70 out of their respective holders and now both coins are worth the same

 

same thing with proof 68 vs 69 break both those coins out of their respective holders and they are basically the demand is the same for both coins hence same$$$

 

highly similar and greatly subjective but yes 69 compaired to 70 grade yes in the holder the 70 is way and sometimes way WAY MORE

 

DITTO 68 VS 69

 

IN FACT CURRENT COLLECTORS in regards to slabed 68 vs. 69coins the 68 to themare all dogs and thewy do noteven want them in fact large submitter of the same type coins have a pre screening and tell the services not to even slab anything that will grade under 69

 

break the 68 and 69 out of their respective holders and both are worth the same $$

 

as for grading for me the mostimportant aspect is eye appeal and with grading not to sound curt but grading for me is

one---looking at hundreds of not thousands of coins over a 30+ year period

two--- having a great magifying glass , for example; 3x-6x-9x zeiss

three----and a great memory and mind for recall

 

do the above and you will in my minds eye become one of the true expert graders

[Conder101]

Nonetheless, one thing I discovered is that the approach to grading coins has left the subjective for objectivity.

Don't kid yourself, grading is still subjective. They may try to pretend that it isn't but that's why everyone still wants to see the coin in hand before purchasing and why the sight-unseen market either never really took off or the prices offered are much lower than in the sight seen market. Also why dealers don't sell all their coins of the same date mint and grade for the same price, or buy all of them at the same price. Because the grade, even from the major services are not objective.

 

I have a devil of a time seeing the difference between PR65 and PR70, much more so between PR64 and PR65.

That's OK, neither can the graders at the services. Crack the coins out and send them in again and you'll likely get different grades on about 20% of them. (Based on PCGS's World Series of Grading where former PCGS graders tended to score around 75 - 80%.)

 

Where do I find the criteria for each grade so that I can see the difference?

You can't, it doesn't exist. There are some written descriptions in the PCGS and ANA grading guides but they really won't do you much good. You won't be able to learn how to grade the MS grades well or consistently from the written "guides".

 

but when you get to the point that a regular collector like me cannot determine the grade of his/her own coins, I gotta ask questions

Agreed but are you asking the right questions? Probably , because you seem skeptical.

 

I want to be able to go thru my 50 year collection of proof and mint sets and assign grades to the coins,

Why?

 

realizing that by doing so I won't increase their purchase price should I sell them (not ever)

Again, then why do it?

 

but that it's just what coin collectors, true collectors, do.

It is?? Well I guess that must explain it. I must not be a true collector.

 

but how did the original standard get set? How did someone come up with a concrete way to make the differentiation between PR68 and 69? Who arrived at the separational criteria and how was that information relayed to the first people hired to grade coins?

It didn't. PCGS was the first service to use all 11 MS grades. The firm was started by and I believe the original grades done by the some of the top, most respected people in the business. This gave people confidence in the grades. But even then during the first few years it was very unusual for them to grade anything better than MS-65. When a coin turned up at a show that was graded higher than 65 it would actually make the news in Coin World and Numismatic News. Gradually over time MS-66's, 67's etc slowly became more common. So either the collectors and dealers held back all of these top grade coins for fifteen years or more before they started submitting them (Even though the market reached heights in 1989 that still haven't been topped.) or a lot of todays MS-67's and better were MS-65 or worse back in the late 80's. So the criteria didn't exist, it evolved, grading changed and people learn the "standard" by looking at the coins the services were putting out. They call this a 68, so it must be a 68 and therefor this must be what a 68 looks like so we will compare others against this.

[michael]

My question is, with the 'old' way of grading, it was pretty easy to assign a grade yourself, and in the circulated grades, this seems to still hold true. What I cannot get a handle on are the MS and PR grades - I have a devil of a time seeing the difference between PR65 and PR70, much more so between PR64 and PR65.

 

as per the above

 

 

hard to answer you got to look at lots of ngc/pcgs graded coins and after 10 years you might come up with an answer

 

if you do please let me know!

 

the current answer is grading arbritrage; played by many