PCGS disavows grade at Heritage auction!!!!!!!

[jtryka]

Tell me again why the guy who sold it didn't get fair value?

 

Ok, I'll explain my view. The coin was one of a kind right? (actually, the holder was one of a kind, there are probably still hundreds of really nice proof 1963 cents). As a result, there is really no established market for the coin right? So one way to establish a market is through an auction, but since PCGS stepped in, the auction really didn't happen, or at least wouldn't happen given that the grade was disavowed. Clearly, if the seller agreed to PCGS' offer on the coin then the market price would have been established, but if the seller agreed due to a lower price due to PCGS' interference in the market, then the market value was never established.

 

Let me make a simple example. Suppose you have a $20 gold certificate issued by the US Treasury, and at the time of issue, gold was $20.67 per ounce and the certificate could be redeemed for 0.9675 ounces of gold. Well, assuming the treasury stands behind the note, by today's price it is worth about $410, which is what the auction price would be (or somewhere close). Now suppose the Treasury says, "Sorry, we won't honor this, but you can still spend it for $20." What would that do to the price?

 

Now you raise a good point in that the coin had obviously turned, so buyers should know better. Well that's all well and good, but let's be honest, most registry participants cannot discern the difference in quality from one grade point, so when they are bidding for a top graded coin, they are bidding on the slab and not the coin. When coins like these are worth a tiny fraction raw compared to their slabbed value, then people are mainly buying the slab, and the issuing company has enormous influence over their value.

 

Now here's a question, what if the turning only rendered it PR-68? or PR-69? Would you still be in favor of PCGS' actions?

 

By disavowing the grade PCGS put the other registry buyers on notice that this coin would not be allowed into the registry, therefore extinguishing any reason for someone to want to buy it.

 

Well, the guarantee might have been another reason to buy it as well. But honestly, what does this say about their guarantee? Doesn't this set a dangerous precident? At what points will they choose to not honor their grading guarantee? A guarantee that is only honored at the option of the guarantor is no guarantee at all; at best its a lottery, at worst it's charity. And again, you are conveniently overlooking the conflict of interest here between the demand created for such a "registry" coin, the grader of said coin, and the creator of the registry itself.

 

When the day comes when someone who only buys a coin so that they can brag about being number one in a registry, when that coin is obviously a POS then I am out of this hobby for good.

 

Have you looked into knitting, or perhaps woodworking? It seems to me that day has already come and gone.

 

It's time to tell the industry we are tired of this [!@#%^&^] and "WE AREN'T GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!"

 

I couldn't agree with you more! Let's start with the third-party graders, let's demand immediately that PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, SEGS, PCI and all others that want our collecting dollars to publish clearly what is and is not covered under their guarantee, under what circumstances they can unilaterally nullify the guarantee, and to publish statistics relating to the claims and settlements made pursuant to their guarantees. Once we have such transparent information, we can rely more easily on all these services, and then focus on the dealers and auctioners.

[braddick]

From my understanding, this Lincoln was previously owned (made?) by Rick Tomaska and subsequently sold to a client of his for either $15,000.00, or less (with the 15K being the second selling price via the Collecor). It was a valid "70" and turned in the holder, months down the road, after a poor Windexing job. It's too bad PCGS wasn't then made aware as they could have purchased the coin back with its guarantee and then gone after the Dealer who altered the coin's surface in the first place.

[BushMan]

For pete sakes it makes you no better than those half-dozen NGC forum bashers over there.Show some class.

Easily correctible. Spend all your time over there. Then you won't have to know what is being posted over here. I'm sure your time there would help you to learn all about lack of class.

[Tradedollarnut]

S.S.D.D.

[IrishMike]

S.S.D.D.

 

amen.

[LucyBop]

[Leothelion]

Hey! I like that!

POO POO? But I posted a few seconds after TDN.

So lets give David Hall the pat on the back that he finally deserves, way to go Dave! Gee, it wouldn't surprise me this would eventually make front page numismatic news. How do you know they didn't set this up from the start? I don't buy it! It's just another publicity stunt! At least he's trying to start this year off better then the way last year went, lest we forget! I don't trust the man, period! I've seen too many injustices from this company. My advice, wise up, take your loses and leave the registries. Let's work together in straightening up this false mockery of the coin market, prices and population reports. When all this BS bottoms out, we are going to lose many more collectors and dealers alike because of this. It's already happening as we speak! They'll finally figure out as many already have that they've been scammed and leave! A sad day awaits this numismatic hobby and PCGS will be to blame. I don't know where many of you have been, what your reading or why you put such faith in all the sh(hype)it. How anyone can sit back and watch someone pay 10X, 20X what a coin's worth and call it a great honest hobby is beyond me. Read back into a few hundred posts from those who are lashing back and refresh your memories. Wake up people!

 

King are you suffering from CRS or is your memory just real short ?

 

Putting a statement up on a forum like this is IMO total BS. How can you come on this forum and single out one portion of the Hobby as the eventual Doom for the Hobby ? I guess it ranks right up there with the statements made other places that NGC cannot grade worth a [!@#%^&^] and that they are a blight on the Hobby.

 

Anyway with the start of TPG in the eighties the Hobby was enhanced and IMO saved for future generations of collectors. Have you forgot what it was like before TPG ? Maybe this is where your CRS has came in.Certainly some mistakes have been made not only by PCGS but also NGC.

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but in my opinion your statement reaked of California Horse Manure.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mike ( I mean, Ken)

You shouldn't take a statement out of the context and respond to it. I fixed it for you so others can understand what your saying or what post you're referring to.

What you wrote should make alot of sense now. BTW, you made no reference to the registries, the exact point to my post!

 

In response to your point about the TGC's, how they have improved the hobby, they have and who wouldn't agree!

 

Leo

 

 

[Fairlaneman]

Well boys this thread appears to have some stimulating reading and opinions. The only question I have is. Would have this happen if the thread would have been left to only the Bash Boys without outside interference for stimulation ?

 

I congratulate you for a Nice Job done with your thoughts.

 

[jtryka]

Well boys this thread appears to have some stimulating reading and opinions. The only question I have is. Would have this happen if the thread would have been left to only the Bash Boys without outside interference for stimulation ?

 

I congratulate you for a Nice Job done with your thoughts.

 

 

If this thread was left only to those wanting to bash PCGS, it would have gone less than 4 total posts. I am not sure I would give much credit to the "outside interference" either. This whole thread relates to an important issue that has broad implications for our hobby and in many cases our personal wealth. That certainly helps bring out thoughts and opinions worth reading.

[EVillageProwler]

What does "S.S.D.D." mean?

 

EVP

 

[truthteller]

Same Stuff(polite word), Different Day.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Wihlborg]

What does "S.S.D.D." mean?

 

Same Sxxx different day

 

John

[SilverEagleCoins]

I think it's great that PCGS took the coin off the market. I think it could have been done in a better way but generally I have no complaints. Instead of disavowing it prior to bidding they should have bought it from the owner, written a joint press release between PCGS, auction house and the owner and announced the coin was no longer up for auction for such and such a reason. Then there would not be as much speculation if all three issued a statement "PCGS, Heritage and the owner have come to a mutual agreement beneficial to all parties and remove coin# from the auction. Changes to the coin in storage do not warrant the original grade. Thank you."

 

Bottom line is that taking it off was good, presentation could have been much better.

[sanmary]

Irish Mike,

I don't always agree with you, but yes the bull#$@% has to stop somewhere. I hope it is soon. Forgetting whatever service, we are collectors and we want what we expect from TPGS's. I do not often side with PCGS, but I do agree that someone at Heritage KNEW this coin was a dog and still tried to sell it...WRONG! One must have to wonder how much money someone will spend on a top registry set only to eventually see their "top-set" be worthless.

[Beijim]

They could have cared less what the coin actually graded, they were buying an insert.

 

I think you mean, "They couldn't have cared less?" If they could have cared less, I'm sure they would have tried.

 

Beijim

[IrishMike]

I certainly hope this is my final thoughts on this thread. If anyone dares to think that I am a PCGS koolaid drinker then you haven't read much of what I have written since I joined both boards, which is probably a good thing. In fact I started the koolaid kick over there by calling some posts out. I think that by observing what is said by PCGS, their financial results I have gained an insight into the personality and capabilitys that drive the company and I have expressed them. I have even posted analyses of their financial results which as we all know have been subpar recently.

 

If this qualifies me as one of those bashers from the other board so be it, but it only shows me that you haven't read much of what I post. What has grown tiresome here is the as well as there is the need to make it personal. Name-calling and outrageous claims aren't necessary. It was and is possible to have civil discourse here.

 

Many of the members here that I respect post on both boards and I enjoy reading and learning from what they have to say. However I just know that if I open some threads on either board I already know there will be agenda behind them and what it will be. I think we all need to ask ourselves are we posting from an agenda or have we really thought something through. It's one of the lessons I learned about posting to boards as well as that your thoughts don't get as clearly articulated as you would like.

 

I collect very few slabbed coins relative to what is in my collection. I don't collect to collect the very best, but this doesn't mean that I can't see the value and the detractions of slabbed coins or the fun in collecting the best along with the downsides that can come from this.

 

It also doesn't mean that when someone does the right thing as I think David Hall did that I won't defend it. No one is wrong all of the time or right all of the time. We don't expect that in ourselves so why should we expect that in others.

 

Finally, I can't think of one person who posts on these coin forums that I wouldn't love to sit down with over a beer and discuss coins and this hobby. I don't take these boards personal.

 

Edited to add: well maybe one member WSM, and only because I would already know everthing he would say.

[LucyBop]

I just know that if I open some threads on either board I already know there will be agenda behind them

 

some people have the nerve to promote Franklins at all costs! What Nerve!

[IrishMike]

Lucille, you need to be spanked.

[EVillageProwler]

IrishMike:

 

Put down that Koolaid! Your buddy WSM is waitng at the bar for you!

 

Ok, seriously, folks, *I* think Hall and PCGS did the right thing ultimately by pulling the infamous 63PF70DC cent off the market. I don't wish to cast aspersions at the way they ended up doing it. On this matter alone, I don't attribute greatness or lameness in their actions leading up to the coin's removal. People and companies will do things for their own reasons and at their own pace. It will never be possible to satisfy everyone 100% of the time.

 

Until you've become intimate with all facets of the paritcular matter and walked a mile in their shoes, I would suggest that we all sit back and keep an open mind.

 

Personally, I like to focus on the big picture and try to do so from their perspective. As best as possible in that regard, I think Hall and PCGS did the right thing.

 

EVP

 

[jtryka]

IrishMike,

 

I agree with most of what you said, and I think you said it pretty well. On this matter I think we can agree to disagree. I will also admit that I would have felt differently if the disavowing of the grade was done to pry it loose, rather than just before an auction. In cases like this, the more transparency the better, and this is where I think PCGS fell short.

 

Finally regarding this:

 

Edited to add: well maybe one member WSM, and only because I would already know everthing he would say.

 

You know I really do take offense to this, singling out WSM is not fair. After all, there are many on this board who think quite highly of ostriches and lemmings...