Is this the description of an XF45?

[coinman1794]

Glittering, frosty mint luster from rim to rim; full and unbroken mint bloom except for light wear spots over only the highest design elements. Sharply struck and mark/hairline free. Possibly a totally original piece, with rich, deep, blue grey and golden brown, with dusty rose accents and no evidence of ever having been dipped. Edge lettering misaligned as per Overton. Remarkable quality and eye appeal for the issue.

 

Is this the description of an XF45 coin?

 

 

 

Apparently, PCGS thinks so about my 1813 O-108 (almost 108A). The pictures arent great becuase they dont show the glowing cartwheel luster. PCGS is net grading an obvious AU55 coin at XF45 because of a typical misaligned edge lettering machine error, as though it were something negative. OK, you might not be used to this affect--you might even pass on this coin for another variety that doesn't have it, but it's a result of the minting process, not damage.

 

Sometimes the edge lettering machine would become misaligned when working on half dollars (Flowing Hair through Capped Bust), and the letters would punch slightly into the rim, leaving either a dent, a buckled lump, or a series of lumps creating a pie crust-like pattern around the rim. But specifically, 1813 O-108 is one of the only die varieties in the 1807-1836 series for which Overton specifically states that edge lettering machine misalignment is to be expected. So not only is this a mint error (and not damage), but also it is a frequent characteristic of this specific die variety. That should make it something of particular interest, not disgrace. Therefore, it seems the grade should have been a strong AU (as per the coins quality), and not net-graded to XF45. For the record, this coin was removed from a fresh PCGS AU50 slab when it was sent in, so I know XF45 is extra conservative.

 

 

What say you?

[Bugmann1974]

Glittering, frosty mint luster from rim to rim; full and unbroken mint bloom except for light wear spots over only the highest design elements. Sharply struck and mark/hairline free. Possibly a totally original piece, with rich, deep, blue grey and golden brown, with dusty rose accents and no evidence of ever having been dipped. Edge lettering misaligned as per Overton. Remarkable quality and eye appeal for the issue.

 

Is this the description of an XF45 coin?

 

 

 

Sounds and looks like a late die state and or weakly struck AU55/58 to me.But I don't know anything.

[physics-fan3.14]

Mmm, love the doubling of the profile as well. I think 45 is definitely harsh. Based on the pics, I would put it at 53. But I have a couple of examples of 45's that should be AU's.

[Mark T]

Looks like you had this graded on a Monday morning after the grader had a long weekend or on a Friday afternoon when the grader was looking forward to a long weekend.

 

I think XF 45 is a bit harsh . I would not give it Au 55 but I would sure say it would be at the very least Au 50. I like the color and crust , it looks original to my eyes.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

GOSH, 1813 is a great date in the bust half series, isn't it? I used to own one practically identical to yours, including the doubled profile and the edge lettering problems.

 

PCGS blew it. Your coin is obviously AU-something.

[MBA101]

If you paid XF 45 money for it, then you REALLY have nothing to complain about. My NGC AU-53 has slightly more wear than that, but the luster is very strong. These 1813's often exhibit more wear than the luster would indicate, so I could see this in a 55 holder as long as the luster is very apparent. But would downgrade it to a 50 or 53 if the luster is very dull with toning...

 

Great Coin!

[BillJones]

Maybe PCGS knocked off some points because the "rim nicks." Those are actaully from the edge lettering machine and are not that unusual for half dollars from this era.

 

I'd say that the coin grades a low end AU, 50 or 53.

[coinman1794]

Maybe PCGS knocked off some points because the "rim nicks." Those are actaully from the edge lettering machine and are not that unusual for half dollars from this era.

 

I'd say that the coin grades a low end AU, 50 or 53.

 

Bill, read my post again

 

 

[coinman1794]

If you paid XF 45 money for it, then you REALLY have nothing to complain about. My NGC AU-53 has slightly more wear than that, but the luster is very strong. These 1813's often exhibit more wear than the luster would indicate, so I could see this in a 55 holder as long as the luster is very apparent. But would downgrade it to a 50 or 53 if the luster is very dull with toning...

 

Great Coin!

 

I really must complain then; I bought it in a PCGS AU50 slab for strong AU53+ money, and I grade it AU55 myself.

[coinman1794]

Looks like you had this graded on a Monday morning after the grader had a long weekend or on a Friday afternoon when the grader was looking forward to a long weekend.

 

I think XF 45 is a bit harsh . I would not give it Au 55 but I would sure say it would be at the very least Au 50. I like the color and crust , it looks original to my eyes.

 

 

Actually, this is the result of Friday afternoon grading, but both times seem to produce the same result!

[EZ_E]

This really is an interesting variety, Douglas. The reverse clash, the hey-ba, you-ba lips, the doubled profile and the misaligned edge lettering makes it a very interesting coin. And, as you mentioned, the rim bumps are mint-made and should not affect the grade of a circulated coin such as this. It should certainly limit the grade on an uncirculated example to MS64, IMO, but should never have detracted points from a circulated grade.

 

It really is a shame and somewhat disgusting to pay high fees for a professional assessment and receive such a result.

 

"It ain't rat, I tell ya!"

[coinman1794]

I think the War of 1812 ere halves are my favorite in the series, though its alwasy a tough call.

 

There are so many different eras in the production of Capped Bust halves, with varying hub styles and manufacturing qualities. The coins of 1809-1815 (but particularly 1812-15) were very poorly made, overall. The dies were overused and the coins are very crude in appearance. Edge lettering problems are just a part of this period, and they add character, in my opinion. Every attempt was made to keep dies in use, even if this required polishing off parts of the design, as on the 1814 Single Leaf Reverse, O-105A.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Doug or somebody knowledgeable, could you do a thread and talk a little about each of the subtypes of CBHs, and considerations for grading each hub type correctly? I've noticed that the earlier halves wear differently, and must be graded differently than the later ones, but I'm not really sure of the differences and what must be considered. I'm comfortable with the 1830-1836 types, those are overall pretty easy, but the earlier ones are trickier.

[coinman1794]

That would make for an interesting thread. Maybe tonight!

[WoodenJefferson]

Couple of good points here about Capped Busts.

[James_OldeTowne]

Doug or somebody knowledgeable, could you do a thread and talk a little about each of the subtypes of CBHs, and considerations for grading each hub type correctly? I've noticed that the earlier halves wear differently, and must be graded differently than the later ones, but I'm not really sure of the differences and what must be considered. I'm comfortable with the 1830-1836 types, those are overall pretty easy, but the earlier ones are trickier.

Very briefly, the halves wear differently because they are in fact different designs, with differing levels of relief. Put an 1807 CBH next to an 1836, and the difference between them is blatant. The earlier coins from 1807 and 1808 were struck from the lowest relief dies, 1809 - 1814 somewhat higher, the 1815s were struck from reused 1812 dies, and the issues from 1817 through 1819 differ from all those previous.

 

On top of this, planchet diameter, and therefore thickness, varied from year to year. If memory serves correct, 1810 saw the widest flans, which is why you can find so many from that date with beautiful dentilation. And of course, application of the Castaing machine varied year by year as well, with 1813 seeing the worst, most amateurish coins.

 

This is a very brief synopsis. To go through wear characteristics of each variety would be a very lengthy endeavor, and I wouldn't have near the expertise to do so!

[coinman1794]

That's a good start James. To mention casting machine problems again, the varying size and shape of struck half dollars, in the 1812-1813 years especially, surely lead to the frequent misalingment of the letters.

 

Off the top of my head, I would group the bust style periods as follows:

 

1807-1807

1809-1815

1817-1825 (though slight variations were made in the early 1820s)

1826-1830 (with minor variations each year)

1831 (many 1831s seem to have a slightly more squared off image and a younger face. It had a higher relief that rarely struck up properly though, especially the bustline)

1832 (there are several variation of this date, as well as changes in the eagle, some resemble 1831 styles closely)

1833- 1834 (1834 saw several head types like that of 1833)

1834 (many variation for 1834, ultimately ending in the young head, O-111, 112)

1835-1836 (continuation of the young head)