can we get the RCMP to speak to EBAY on our behalf?

[jesbroken]

After one meeting with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ebay immediately removed all replica Canadian coins. Wish they would speak to them on behalf of US Coin collectors, as it appears our own Secret Service doesn't have the kahuna's to do so or even the care. Article in today's Coin World.

Jim

[thehumantorch]

After one meeting with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ebay immediately removed all replica Canadian coins. Wish they would speak to them on behalf of US Coin collectors, as it appears our own Secret Service doesn't have the kahuna's to do so or even the care. Article in today's Coin World.

Jim

 

Canadians rock!!!!!!

 

It's good to know someone is actually listening.

[Oldtrader3]

Our Secret Service is being a secret!

[DC Dawg]

After one meeting with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ebay immediately removed all replica Canadian coins. Wish they would speak to them on behalf of US Coin collectors, as it appears our own Secret Service doesn't have the kahuna's to do so or even the care. Article in today's Coin World.

Jim

 

That is because the US Secret Service protects against counterfeit currency used in the act of commerce. Selling counterfeit collectible coins would fall under the Hobby Protection Act of 1973. According to Title 15, Section 2103 of the United States Code (15 U.S.C. § 2103), the Federal Trade Commission is supposed to enforce the law. According the 15 U.S.C. § 50, FTC's enforcement capabilities are limited to investigative hearings and bringing civil lawsuits against violators.

 

However, legal precedence suggests that eBay would not be liable for these listing. There has been several cases in the 9th Circuit (California) whose precedence would validate a potential eBay defense to claim to be a "common carrier" and not responsible if a member posts illicit items. They can monitor their site and provide enforcement when they can, but cannot be held liable if they show a reasonable measure of enforcing their policies.

 

The laws and enforcement mechanisms in Canada is very different. For one thing, the RCMP is the central law enforcement agency and has jurisdiction over all federal Canadian law enforcement. Unlike in the US where the federal government has 22 different law enforcement agencies in Washington, DC alone!

 

If you want to fix this? Write your members of congress. It's their fault. They passed the laws that caused this mess!

 

Scott

[Bugmann1974]

That is because the US Secret Service protects against counterfeit currency used in the act of commerce.

 

The coins they are counterfeiting can be used in commerce though. Case in point, just about everyone over the age of 25 knows what an indian head penny is. Occationaly you fine one in circulation. What would happen if someone tried to spend an 1877 fake?

[MorganMan]

"However, legal precedence suggests that eBay would not be liable for these listing. There has been several cases in the 9th Circuit (California) whose precedence would validate a potential eBay defense to claim to be a "common carrier" and not responsible if a member posts illicit items. They can monitor their site and provide enforcement when they can, but cannot be held liable if they show a reasonable measure of enforcing their policies."

 

 

 

So does that mean that if I do not possess drugs, but just make the deals and handle the cash for deliveries, I am considered a "common carrier" and exempt from any prosecution?

 

MM

[BillJones]

Our Federal Government is currently more interested in controlling Americans than they are the activities of Chinese counterfeiters. I'm sorry to say it.

[DC Dawg]

The coins they are counterfeiting can be used in commerce though. Case in point, just about everyone over the age of 25 knows what an indian head penny is. Occationaly you fine one in circulation. What would happen if someone tried to spend an 1877 fake?

The moment you put them into circulation or attempt to circulate them as legal tender currency, then the Secret Service could become involved. But since we are talking about selling coins on eBay as collectibles, the jurisdiction is under the Hobby Protection Act, and thus the FTC.

 

So does that mean that if I do not possess drugs, but just make the deals and handle the cash for deliveries, I am considered a "common carrier" and exempt from any prosecution?

 

MM

Common carrier rules are for electronic communications and not drugs--although I know some people who use the services of common carries as a drug!!

 

Scott

[MorganMan]

If you are a web host, sure, you can claim "common carrier". You can not police every web site you host if you have thousands of them.

 

But E-Bay is not a common carrier. They are activeley involved in what is on their website. They also make money off of that. I do not think the common carrier rule would work in their circumstances.

 

But you know what high dollar lawyers can do.

 

MM

[DC Dawg]

If you are a web host, sure, you can claim "common carrier". You can not police every web site you host if you have thousands of them.

 

But E-Bay is not a common carrier. They are activeley involved in what is on their website. They also make money off of that. I do not think the common carrier rule would work in their circumstances.

 

But you know what high dollar lawyers can do.

 

MM

The problem is not what you think, it's what the law thinks! Your opinion is more reasonable than the law!! Since the Supreme Court has not ruled on this (yet), we are left with precedence of the various District Courts for guidance. A quick search shows that the 9th Circuit has ruled in favor of Amazon.com, Netcom (a deceased ISP), and Earthlink (who bought Netcom) in common carrier claims. However, there was a case in the 11th District (Georgia) against Earthlink that had everyone running to clean up their terms of service, forcing them to better enforce their terms.

 

There was a case somewhere in Texas (5th District) against Overstock.com, but I cannot find the reference. It does not appear that te case went anywhere. The gist of the case was that a retail partner that uses Overstock's website defrauded a customer in Texas who sued Overstock and not the retailer. Overstock argued it was a common carrier in this case and not bound by certain rules under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).

 

Currently, there are known cases in North Carolina and New York regarding the collecting of sales taxes for goods sold that has implications on the common carrier principle and a potential impact to the UCC.

 

The biggest issue is that there is a gap in the UCC regarding electronic or online transactions. An industry group tried to solve this with the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) starting in 1999. In an analysis I did for my final Masters paper in 2000, I called the UCITA a draconian attempt to treat customers like a byproduct of their consumption. The law is so bad, that congress would not consider it--so they went to the individual states to try to do an end-run around congress. Only Virginia and Maryland passed the UCITA. Virginia is the home of the Business Software Alliance, the (alleged arm of Microsoft) that goes after software licensing cheaters. This group has a lot of pull in Richmond. Since Maryland competes with Virginia for businesses and is insecure in that Virginia gets all the better tech jobs, the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons in Annapolis passed the UCITA in 2000. For the record, I live in Maryland and work in Virginia.

 

Every other state either refuses to consider the UCITA or voted in a "poison pill" law that would penalize a company for including UCITA licensing and operations provision in their states.

 

States do not want the Feds to get involved because they are afraid that they will lose the potential to tax online sales. So if congress was to give the FTC better enforcement capabilities to go after eBay or allow the Secret Service to provide additional enforcement in these areas, you may see companies like eBay change their business models to make it more difficult for buyers and make it more difficult for the states to potentially tax their sales.

 

Thus, it is more than the lawyers. It is your state's legislatures, governors, and congress!

 

Otto von Bismark once said, "Laws are like sausages, you don't want to see them being made." Think of this quote while you watch the public display of congress trying to craft a health care reform bill and you will understand why we won't get the type of enforcement like the RCMP provides in the United States!

 

Scott

[WinstonWare]

Our Federal Government is currently more interested in controlling Americans than they are the activities of Chinese counterfeiters. I'm sorry to say it.

 

Sadly, I agree

[Conder101]

One reason Canada was able to get such action is that they don't have something like our hobby protection act. As far as Canada is concerned even marked copies are counterfeits. So in Canada's view eBay was permitting the listing of counterfeit Canadians coins even though they were marked replica.