Differences between...

[stinkycheese1]

How do you tell the difference between die polish lines and tool marks?

 

I'm guessing that tool marks can be "worm" like lines ON the devices of the coins, where die polish is always on the fields. Is this right?

[Revenant]

Before we answer, is this going to be another week-long group therapy session about your latest gold purchase?

[stinkycheese1]

Before we answer, is this going to be another week-long group therapy session about your latest gold purchase?

 

 

::sigh::

 

No....it isn't. But I can definitely see where you're coming from, from my past discussions I bet it's pretty easy to de-duct that I would start another one of those thread...although that wasn't the intention at all. Sorry for asking that question...I like learning about gold counterfeits and I truly didn't know the answer to.

[MarkFeld]

Kevin, die polish lines are typically in the fields, but not always. Below is some verbiage I found on " dietool marks" - if you read it, they sound quite different from die polish lines.

 

"2. Die Tool Marks - These are often commented on in microscopic examinations of coins but rarely make the headlines when they are the cause of confusion in understanding and grading a coin that is otherwise uncirculated. These are tiny marks caused by die conditioning tools - usually very small chisels that are used to recondition used dies that have picked up extraneous materials during their striking runs. They will also be used frequently to reinforce the depth around the edges of lettering and other areas of the die that might begin to flatten out after much use. They can, and often do reflect light slightly differently than the surfaces surrounding them and can therefore be mistaken for "bag strikes", "slide marks" and other surface marks that have regular and straightline appearances.

 

Again, they are generally detected by the company they keep, which is mostly none. Bag Strikes and rubs of one kind or another normally are not completely isolated, but will frequently have something else nearby that is similar. Another thing the collector may want to look at is the symmetry of shadow associated with the mark. Generally die tool marks are wedge shaped and symetrical and the shadow that is cast will be a straight line roughly filling in the space in proportion to the angle of the light that strikes it. Bag strikes are often ragged around their edges and if deep enough to cast shadows will have an irregular, asymetrical shadow going away from the angle of the light striking it. Bag strikes will also usually have a slightly higher ridge of metal on the opposite side of the strike that will cast a longer shadow away from the angle of the light as well as away from the main body of the mark. Rub marks will not cast shadows at all, as they are removal of only a single molecular layer of metal that you could not see the shadow of it anyway. "

[jackson64]

great info Mark...and quite coincidental that this thread should be here today.

 

A quick story if I may:

 

I pulled out my Walker Short Set and a tube of circulated Walkers to look at while I watched the hockey playoffs...anyhow, I got this new 20X loupe ( I don't recommend it--my gorgeous/pristine coins are not nearly as close to perfection as I thought)...

 

I'm rambling...to the point, between the rim and the numbers on the date of a few coins were some of those marks which you have now identified...I also noticed these chisel marks between the skirt hem and the top of the foot on the occasional one also.

 

My thinking was that they were too uniform ( straight and equal in depth) to be hits, plus they always seemed to be in recessed areas between device details...but I couldn't understand how the die polishing/blasting would not have smoothed these out..I had never considered re-working being done on the dies..ty

[MarkFeld]

Before we answer, is this going to be another week-long group therapy session about your latest gold purchase?

That really wasn't a fair question/jab, unless you were prepared to contribute.

[stinkycheese1]

Great information mark...

 

never heard such a thing.

 

I had no idea tool marks could be on geniune coins.

 

Differences between tool marks and die polish lines on a counterfeit coin...

 

Die polish can be swirly, and tool marks are "worm like" lines, also die polish is more in the recess of the coin?

 

My main point of the thread was how to tell the difference between them on a counterfeit coin....is this correct?

[MarkFeld]

Great information mark...

 

never heard such a thing.

 

I had no idea tool marks could be on geniune coins.

 

Differences between tool marks and die polish lines on a counterfeit coin...

 

Die polish can be swirly, and tool marks are "worm like" lines, also die polish is more in the recess of the coin?

 

My main point of the thread was how to tell the difference between them on a counterfeit coin....is this correct?

Die polish lines are usually seen in the fields (not necessarily in the recesses), though as I mentioned, they can appear on the devices, as well. I think you shouldn't worry so much about how you would describe them and instead concentrate on examining them

[michael]

Before we answer, is this going to be another week-long group therapy session about your latest gold purchase?

That really wasn't a fair question/jab, unless you were prepared to contribute.

 

TOTALLY AGREE besides being UNFAIR AND MEAN SPIRITED

 

 

[michael]

Kevin, die polish lines are typically in the fields, but not always. Below is some verbiage I found on " dietool marks" - if you read it, they sound quite different from die polish lines.

 

"2. Die Tool Marks - These are often commented on in microscopic examinations of coins but rarely make the headlines when they are the cause of confusion in understanding and grading a coin that is otherwise uncirculated. These are tiny marks caused by die conditioning tools - usually very small chisels that are used to recondition used dies that have picked up extraneous materials during their striking runs. They will also be used frequently to reinforce the depth around the edges of lettering and other areas of the die that might begin to flatten out after much use. They can, and often do reflect light slightly differently than the surfaces surrounding them and can therefore be mistaken for "bag strikes", "slide marks" and other surface marks that have regular and straightline appearances.

 

Again, they are generally detected by the company they keep, which is mostly none. Bag Strikes and rubs of one kind or another normally are not completely isolated, but will frequently have something else nearby that is similar. Another thing the collector may want to look at is the symmetry of shadow associated with the mark. Generally die tool marks are wedge shaped and symetrical and the shadow that is cast will be a straight line roughly filling in the space in proportion to the angle of the light that strikes it. Bag strikes are often ragged around their edges and if deep enough to cast shadows will have an irregular, asymetrical shadow going away from the angle of the light striking it. Bag strikes will also usually have a slightly higher ridge of metal on the opposite side of the strike that will cast a longer shadow away from the angle of the light as well as away from the main body of the mark. Rub marks will not cast shadows at all, as they are removal of only a single molecular layer of metal that you could not see the shadow of it anyway. "

 

(thumbs u

[physics-fan3.14]

Great information mark...

 

never heard such a thing.

 

I had no idea tool marks could be on geniune coins.

 

Differences between tool marks and die polish lines on a counterfeit coin...

 

Die polish can be swirly, and tool marks are "worm like" lines, also die polish is more in the recess of the coin?

 

My main point of the thread was how to tell the difference between them on a counterfeit coin....is this correct?

Die polish lines are usually seen in the fields (not necessarily in the recesses), though as I mentioned, they can appear on the devices, as well. I think you shouldn't worry so much about how you would describe them and instead concentrate on examining them

 

Something you need to be aware of, Kevin, especially since you like the gold coins, is that die polish lines will be on the highest parts of the die, usually. For regular coins, the highest part of the die is the field - BUT on the incuse Indians, this is not the case. All the rules get thrown out the window on them.

[MarkFeld]

Great information mark...

 

never heard such a thing.

 

I had no idea tool marks could be on geniune coins.

 

Differences between tool marks and die polish lines on a counterfeit coin...

 

Die polish can be swirly, and tool marks are "worm like" lines, also die polish is more in the recess of the coin?

 

My main point of the thread was how to tell the difference between them on a counterfeit coin....is this correct?

Die polish lines are usually seen in the fields (not necessarily in the recesses), though as I mentioned, they can appear on the devices, as well. I think you shouldn't worry so much about how you would describe them and instead concentrate on examining them

 

Something you need to be aware of, Kevin, especially since you like the gold coins, is that die polish lines will be on the highest parts of the die, usually. For regular coins, the highest part of the die is the field - BUT on the incuse Indians, this is not the case. All the rules get thrown out the window on them.

I have seen evidence of die polishing on the obverse devices (the faces) of Proof Barber coins. So, it's not always just in the fields on non-incuse coins.

[physics-fan3.14]

I have seen evidence of die polishing on the obverse devices (the faces) of Proof Barber coins. So, it's not always just in the fields on non-incuse coins.

 

(Hence my use of "usually." I find its never wise to speak in absolutes )

 

Is this die polishing similar to the repolished cameos of the '50's era?

[MarkFeld]

I have seen evidence of die polishing on the obverse devices (the faces) of Proof Barber coins. So, it's not always just in the fields on non-incuse coins.

 

(Hence my use of "usually." I find its never wise to speak in absolutes )

 

Is this die polishing similar to the repolished cameos of the '50's era?

My apologies, as I missed the "usually" part. Yes, I think it's fair to describe what I was speaking of as "similar" to the 50's coins you mentioned.

[physics-fan3.14]

That's cool - I didn't know similar practices were used on the Barber era coins. If you have any pictures of this, I'd like to see it.