Since WHEN are coins to which NOTHING was "done" but -

[texasrichard]

It apparently is no longer just an AT/NT disagreement of opinions. Boom has publically stated ATS that NGC damaged his coins while in their possesion and that they now owe him big-time.... or something to that effect.

 

I was comfortable in letting this issue fade away but not once I see that he is outright acusing NGC of damaging his coins.

 

I find that hard to believe. Has there ever been a case where a TPG defaced someones coins on a submission and then just sent them back to the person?

 

Maybe I'm naive, but really....

[MarkFeld]

It apparently is no longer just an AT/NT disagreement of opinions. Boom has publically stated ATS that NGC damaged his coins while in their possesion and that they now owe him big-time.... or something to that effect.

 

I was comfortable in letting this issue fade away but not once I see that he is outright acusing NGC of damaging his coins.

 

I find that hard to believe. Has there ever been a case where a TPG defaced someones coins on a submission and then just sent them back to the person?

 

Maybe I'm naive, but really....

My sight-unseen guess is that the coins were not scratched or defaced, but rather, some toning was possibly lightened or removed.

 

Still, at this point, I give NGC the benefit of the doubt. That is based, among other things, on the original poster's apparent pleasure in talking at great length, exaggerating and dragging things out, without providing specific details or backup for his tales. And my preceding comment was not based on just this one episode.

[dean1345]

I sent a raw 1904 IHC proof to NGC that came back questionable color. They had introduced a solution (acetone) possibly on the coin and it definately looked somewhat different when returned. Maybe someone like Mark would know more about this than I. I was not mad at NGC. I talked to the seller and he offered to return my money. I was out the grading fee but took that as a lesson learned.

[Connecticoin]

+1

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm still trying to figure out how you get " spectacular Bullseye toning" in just 4 years.

[gmarguli]

It apparently is no longer just an AT/NT disagreement of opinions. Boom has publically stated ATS that NGC damaged his coins while in their possesion and that they now owe him big-time.... or something to that effect.

 

Boom also stated that they were bulleyes toned. They look like typical crackle toned coins. State of the art AT.... back in 1989.

[EZ_E]

 

That is hands down the prettiest Classic Head Lg Ct that I have ever seen. WoW!

[Boom]

It is my position that grading services are paid to grade coins, not to tamper with coins' surfaces as in some diagnostic. They all are paid for opinions and as such have NO RIGHT to do as they please with someone's property, period.

 

Don't rub on them - don't do anything other than that for which they have been paid. Let the graders give the opinions for which they have been compensated but refrain from mishandling my property and performing diagnostics on them.

 

The grading line, Market acceptability standards change far too often for my money. Just as I conveyed to John, look around and you'll find ridiculous, blatantly AT'd coins in BOTH services' holders. I am incensed on both counts. Set a standard and stick to it but ALWAYS treat peoples' property with respect.

 

Whereas they DID have a set value they now currently have been reduced to rubbish! Why - because graders took liberties they are not entitled to. Suppose you hire someone to be your gardener yet he takes it upon himself to destroy your car! Same difference. What was once valued at "x" are now worth nothing which means this devaluation came about due to someone's actions. At any rate, what's done is done and that's that!

 

The pictures show proof positive of having been tampered with.

[EZ_E]

I agree the the grading companies often overstep their boundaries--bigitme! You're not the first to complain of them tampering with one's personal property but yet ardently deny it afterwards. There is a respected board member who has complained of NGC's regular practice of doing so on his submissions. I had PCGS do it to me last December but it turned out to my advantage and I got two substantial upgrades. Still, even though I benefited from it, I still have a hard time coming to terms with the practice.

 

p.s. Where's the pics?!

[MarkFeld]

The pictures show proof positive of having been tampered with.

That's bologna, like much of what you have posted in these threads.

 

The toning might have been unstable and/or the appearance of the coins could have changed while in transit. And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

You previously said that the toning was "bulls-eye", but later, after posting images and being told it wasn't, that it was on the way to that. It looks nothing like "bulls-eye" toning. Additionally, the coins don't look obviously original, as you suggested.

 

What you have shown doesn't begin to approach "proof positive". You'll be lucky if NGC doesn't take action against you.

[WinstonWare]

And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

Where are the "after" images?

[MarkFeld]

And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

Where are the "after" images?

They were posted in the thread on the PCGS forum.

[MikeInFL]

The only questionable thing about this coin in my opinion would be why was it bagged !!

It looks original to me. Nice brown chocolate.

Maybe they had an issue with the little red spot on the reverse ?

 

I suspect the coin was bagged for the (rather obvious) recoloring job.

 

Doesn't make it a bad coin in the least -- to the contrary I'd be happy to own it -- but rather to offer an explanation as to why it was bagged.

[MikeInFL]

The pictures show proof positive of having been tampered with.

That's bologna, like much of what you have posted in these threads.

 

The toning might have been unstable and/or the appearance of the coins could have changed while in transit. And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

You previously said that the toning was "bulls-eye", but later, after posting images and being told it wasn't, that it was on the way to that. It looks nothing like "bulls-eye" toning. Additionally, the coins don't look obviously original, as you suggested.

 

What you have shown doesn't begin to approach "proof positive". You'll be lucky if NGC doesn't take action against you.

 

I agree 100%. Here's what I wrote ATS:

 

Boom, I'm sorry, but you have provided absolutely no evidence to support your hypothesis (that NGC "tested" these coins).

 

Again, the color change could have happened in transit and/or the coins just were unstable to begin with -- and nothing you've shown disputes this.

 

Said bluntly, please stop jumping to unsubstantiated (and potentially libelous) conclusions -- they do nothing to inspire confidence in your posts.

[MarkFeld]

The pictures show proof positive of having been tampered with.

That's bologna, like much of what you have posted in these threads.

 

The toning might have been unstable and/or the appearance of the coins could have changed while in transit. And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

You previously said that the toning was "bulls-eye", but later, after posting images and being told it wasn't, that it was on the way to that. It looks nothing like "bulls-eye" toning. Additionally, the coins don't look obviously original, as you suggested.

 

What you have shown doesn't begin to approach "proof positive". You'll be lucky if NGC doesn't take action against you.

 

I agree 100%. Here's what I wrote ATS:

 

Boom, I'm sorry, but you have provided absolutely no evidence to support your hypothesis (that NGC "tested" these coins).

 

Again, the color change could have happened in transit and/or the coins just were unstable to begin with -- and nothing you've shown disputes this.

 

Said bluntly, please stop jumping to unsubstantiated (and potentially libelous) conclusions -- they do nothing to inspire confidence in your posts.

Mike, I thought we had a deal that our alts wouldn't post in the same thread

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

A lot of this speculative discussion couldn't and wouldn't exist if we were shown before and after pictures. I like Boom....think he has a good eye for coins...and I am not bothered by his putting coins in coin envelopes but here are my arguments from what I have seen so far.....these arguments are nothing more than my opinion:

 

1. I would never send toned coins into a TPG without first taking pictures of the coins raw.....we all know including Boom that if you are going to sell toned coins (The most likely reason he toned these and submitted them since some of these would be impossible dates to find toned so the value would be $$$) that great images produce greater sales results. Imaging the coins in NGC slabs is quite the challenge for even the best coin photographers so waiting until the coins are returned is frankly not a reasonable thing to do unless one's camera was broken.

 

2. Boom stated that he wasn't sure whether he imaged them or not and would be hunting for the images.....again as a coin photographer who at times took thousands of images per month....I know for a fact what I have imaged and what I haven't especially if the coins were amazing enough to send in due to the color. Finding the coin images may present a challenge but the notion that one doesn't know if he imaged the coins is a far stretch in my humble opinion.

 

3. As a toned coin zealot myself....I have absolutely preformed experiments whereby I have placed blast white coins in old Mint set holder, coin envelopes etc.....I just pulled some coins out of those little coin envelopes that have been in their since 2001 and guess what....they are still essentially untoned....just a bit of gold...maybe a touch of orange on the high points......not thick rich deep toning that looks like mint set toning as is shown on Boom's coins. Could those coins pictured have been stored exactly the way Boom states he stored them...absolutely. Have I ever had a coin stored in the same fashion tone even remotely as much as his quarters toned in 4 years....not even close

 

Frankly I am not in a position to question the appearance that the coins have been tested or the toning scratched off....I don't have a clue if it happens but I wouldn't think so. I also can't imagine Boom sending the coins in that way so without before and after images.....all I can do is scratch my head and speculate like the rest. To me the coins do look like that had help and the fact that both sides are not deeply toned makes me question the toning even further....I respect NGC's decision to BB the coins, but regardless I do find the colors and appearance attractive outside of the potentially scratched/tested areas. (thumbs u

 

I do hope you get all of this straightened out Boom and if your coins were indeed damaged by NGC, I hope you are made whole.

 

 

[Mark T]

And you never provided "before" pictures, either.

 

Where are the "after" images?

They were posted in the thread on the PCGS forum.

 

I looked through that whole PCGS post and did not see the pictures of these pennies.

 

Where are they ??

 

[kryptonitecomics]

There not pennies they are quarters and I believe they start around page 22 or 23....just guessing since I didn't go back and check

[gmarguli]

It is my position that grading services are paid to grade coins, not to tamper with coins' surfaces as in some diagnostic. They all are paid for opinions and as such have NO RIGHT to do as they please with someone's property, period.

 

Don't rub on them - don't do anything other than that for which they have been paid. Let the graders give the opinions for which they have been compensated but refrain from mishandling my property and performing diagnostics on them.

 

From the pictures posted of at least one of the coins, it looks like the high points of the coin are lighter. Very likely from rubbing against the flip while in transit to/from NGC. The other lightened area could have easily been the result of contract with the flip or polybag.

 

 

Just as I conveyed to John, look around and you'll find ridiculous, blatantly AT'd coins in BOTH services' holders.

 

Please post several examples of this. The number of "blatantly AT'd" coins I've seen in reputable TPG slabs over the years has been extremely small. They let a lot of worked, enhanced, and helped along coins into their slabs, but blatantly AT'd is a rarity.

 

 

Whereas they DID have a set value they now currently have been reduced to rubbish! Why - because graders took liberties they are not entitled to.

 

Highly doubtful. It's much more likely that the AT you put on the coins was not stable.

 

 

Suppose you hire someone to be your gardener yet he takes it upon himself to destroy your car! Same difference.

 

Not even close. Better analogy would be you dumping chemicals on a tree and it looking great that day, and then hiring a gardener. You then go out of town for a few weeks and come home to find the tree dead. You blame the gardener as the tree looked fine when you left. You never consider that what you originally did was the reason for the outcome.

 

 

The pictures show proof positive of having been tampered with.

 

The pictures show nothing other than a bad AT job that would have been caught by many amateur graders, much less the experts at a TPG.

 

Also, you blaming NGC for that extra hit on the reverse of the 1955-D 25c doesn't help your case. Do you really think they banged it against another coin hard enough to cause that hit?

 

I've had coins damaged by the TPG. Some was denied, some was "corrected", and some I was contacted about before I got the coins back and offered compensation. However, I believe that a significant number of times it is the submitter who is misremembering the coin and not the result of a TPG working the coin. Just as in your case, you remembered it as bullseye toning when I highly doubt that the coins you pictured ever had bullseye toning.

 

 

Coin Came Back From Grading Service "Slightly" Different Looking

[Mark T]

There not pennies they are quarters and I believe they start around page 22 or 23....just guessing since I didn't go back and check

 

Ok I saw the Quarters , I thought he sent in pennies I need to pay attention !!

[kryptonitecomics]

There not pennies they are quarters and I believe they start around page 22 or 23....just guessing since I didn't go back and check

 

Ok I saw the Quarters , I thought he sent in pennies I need to pay attention !!

 

 

He sent in pennies too

 

He will need to start a new thread to discuss those

[EZ_E]

I'm rapidly loosing interest in this thread since the original poster doesn't even have the courtesy to post pics despite numerous requests yet he still feels free to rant and rave about an apparent non-issue.

 

 

 

[Mark T]

Ok so I took a close look at the Quarters. I take many high resolution pictures of every coin I purchase. To mail out a coin to a TPG or anyplace else for that matter without having pictures for your records is nuts. Maybe I am being naive but I do not think NGC would “test” your coin with any solution .

 

[WinstonWare]

I'm rapidly loosing interest in this thread since the original poster doesn't even have the courtesy to post pics despite numerous requests yet he still feels free to rant and rave about an apparent non-issue.

 

 

 

I agree

[PerryHall]

I'm rapidly loosing interest in this thread since the original poster doesn't even have the courtesy to post pics despite numerous requests yet he still feels free to rant and rave about an apparent non-issue.

 

 

 

I agree

 

I also agree. Makes you wonder what he's trying to hide.

[MarkFeld]

I'm rapidly loosing interest in this thread since the original poster doesn't even have the courtesy to post pics despite numerous requests yet he still feels free to rant and rave about an apparent non-issue.

 

 

 

I agree

 

I also agree. Makes you wonder what he's trying to hide.

He's probably not trying to hide anything, except perhaps, himself

 

He (rightfully) didn't get a free pass from this forum on his claims. And the tide was turning against him on the PCGS forum too. And that's a good thing, since he made allegations that he couldn't back up with anything more than conjecture and speculation. The more he talked, the worse he looked. Under those circumstances it was best to depart.

[Boom]

Market acceptable ... till I put the NGC pkg together for you.

[kryptonitecomics]

I am not totally clear....are the PCGS coins in the link coins that you toned in envelopes that got graded....and we are just waiting for you to post a link to the BB'd NGC coins

 

If so thanks (thumbs u

[WinstonWare]

Yeah I didn’t understand that post either. A couple of coins appear to be in OGHs so they can’t be recent…

[MarkFeld]

Yeah I didn’t understand that post either. A couple of coins appear to be in OGHs so they can’t be recent…

What else is there to understand that you think the original poster will be of any help with?

 

In many instances the line between NT and AT is blurred, and always will be.

 

Graders usually evaluate coins without knowing precisely how they've been stored and/or what''s been done to them.

 

Consequently, it is inevitable that sometimes they will body-bag coins which are NT, but look AT.

 

Conversely, they will also grade AT coins which look NT.

 

Some submitters understand and accept that reality, while others don't.

 

And some submitters feel that they should be entitled to the upside, but immune from the downside that results from this reality.

 

Anything else?