Joseph C. Thomas Collection

[Desert Gold]

Hello

 

I was looking at the Heritage catalog for the upcoming auction and I was amazed at how many of the really nice coins are part of the Joseph C. Thomas Collection. There are over 500 coins attributed to the Joseph C. Thomas Collection, and many of these coins are tops in the population metrics. In fact, over half of the coins at Platinum Night are from this collection. Does anyone know who Joseph C. Thomas is and how he put together such a phenomenal collection? Just curious.

 

[MarkFeld]

Having viewed the coins in Dallas last week, my guess is that the owner is either an investor or a collector who bought the coins, in large part, based on the grades on the labels.

 

Also, many of the coins were bought through Heritage auctions, a number of them within the past year or two. That will allow for then vs.now price comparisons, which, I predict, will not paint a pretty picture.

[World Colonial]

I am not familair with this collection and I admit that it is impressive but only moderately so because I do not consider it comporable with the real world class collection that have preceded it and may exist today (and which I admit I am not aware of either).

 

These include Eliasburg, Garrett, Norweb, Farouk, Lilly and John J. Ford among others. Other members of this board will be more familiar with older collections that I cannot recall offhand.

 

It seems today that most of the feature collections at auction are only world class in a particular specialty which I would attribute to the increased competition of acquiring them and the substantial or exhorbitant expense of doing so.

 

Better quality coins, whether popular or scarce, have become so expensive that it takes a substantial amount of money to put together what I would describe as a substantial one in almost any area. I would say probably at least a few hundred thousand dollars minimum.

 

For most coins, building a collection is almost always a matter of having the money because most of them are not that difficult to find. And possibly if you have enough of it, it will be true for almost every coin. There was an article on the Stack's website several years ago where they described how they had put together the Spanish colonial gold collection for Josiah Lilly. They basically called up their sources and apparently were able to build a substanbtial collection in these coins which are defintely not common. Then elsewhere, I read that Lilly donated his collection of 6000 gold coins to (I believe) the Smithsonian which would be valued today at around $341 million. Now that is an impressive collection.

[jgrinz]

Having viewed the coins in Dallas last week, my guess is that the owner is either an investor or a collector who bought the coins, in large part, based on the grades on the labels.

 

Also, many of the coins were bought through Heritage auctions, a number of them within the past year or two. That will allow for then vs.now price comparisons, which, I predict, will not paint a pretty picture.

 

Ouch ... I am glad I am not a label buyer

[realone]

I don't know about you guys but i am also well aware that some of the coins in this collection was actually purchased on heritage within only the last two years just as Mr Feld stated, coins which I personally decided on passing then as i will again this time around, my point is one typically thinks when an enormous collection comes to sale that it iis fresh and somewhat unique and the coins were held by the owner/consignor for some time and that just isn't the case with this collection.

[jgrinz]

IS this the Senator Joseph C. Thomas

[Mark T]

I also noticed this collection of coins. Quite a few MS Bust Halves. Many of the MS 64 Busts did not jump out at me as 64. This observation I am going to make is quite an obvious one. If the coins are good then they will be bid up during the floor session by people who viewed them in hand. Here is a thought, say one of those MS 64 coins was only bidding an MS 62 wholesale price and you had to purchase the coin based on Heritage photos only . Would you bid on that coin ?

[MikeInFL]

the owner is either an investor or a collector who bought the coins, in large part, based on the grades on the labels.

 

 

That is not exactly a glowing endorsement.

[Mark T]

Having viewed the coins in Dallas last week, my guess is that the owner is either an investor or a collector who bought the coins, in large part, based on the grades on the labels.

 

Also, many of the coins were bought through Heritage auctions, a number of them within the past year or two. That will allow for then vs.now price comparisons, which, I predict, will not paint a pretty picture.

 

I took a look at the sales history of some of these coins. They were purchased when the coin market was a lot stronger then it is today.

Mark, you know I trust your eyes but there may be some opportunities here on a few of these coins based on the current bid activity.

 

[Mark T]

Does this one belong in an AU58 holder ? I know this over date has very weak strikes but this one just does not look right .

I had Mark Feld look at this coin for me and it received a Thumbs down , after taking a better look at it I don’t know why I even asked him to approve it for me in the first place:-} .

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1124&Lot_No=675

 

This coin sold last year for $ 6,325 .

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=557

 

I would maybe consider paying an Au 50 price .

 

Thoughts ??

 

[SlumLord98-migration]

This coin last sold in 2006 for $253k against a lowered reserve. At that time there was not another player at anywhere near that price.

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1124&Lot_No=2418

 

This coin sold at the 2007 CSNS show for $30k vs a lowered reserve by a well known dealer who'd had it on his website for $37,500. The coin was formerly in a P50 holder but through persistence, it became a 58. At that time Dan Holmes, the well known copper collector, was interested but passed, claiming it was a technical EF (he was/is correct).

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1124&Lot_No=2394

 

It will be interesting to watch!

[Tradedollarnut]

When I see overgraded coins, I just imagine them in the holder with a label at which level they'd be considered PQ and assign a value accordingly

[James_OldeTowne]

The images for both of these coins are horrible from what I can see. If I'm not mistaken (and will defer to Brad), these must be graded by surfaces, not by details, and such lousy images give no impression of surface texture or luster whatsoever.

 

You absolutely cannot grade these by details, since both die marriages will have miserable detail regardless of time spent in circulation. I would love to see these in hand!

[EZ_E]

When I see overgraded coins, I just imagine them in the holder with a label at which level they'd be considered PQ and assign a value accordingly

 

Great rule of thumb. Similarly, when I see an Overton variety offered at their un-saintly prices, I just imagine the price of a generic example at the same grade and shake my head in wonder.

 

So, there are 9 examples of the 1817/4 half known. OK......... Without magnification, it is virtually indistinguishable from the 1817 which, if corroded such as this overdate, is maybe a $100 coin. However, because of nuances in the dies, it is now a quarter of a million dollar coin. Incredible! I just don't get it.

 

Yet, this just applies to the Capped Bust series. I have the rarest marriage variety with my 1874 CC half, yet it carries no premium. Go figure.

 

Yes, I understand the concept of supply and demand and the fascination and compulsion of collecting but this is waaaaaay overboard, in my opinion. I just don't get it.

 

[SlumLord98-migration]

Hi James,

 

How goes it? Are you making the trek to Cincy?

 

My opinion based on in hand observation is that the 17/4 is corroded and fugly and will yeild a serious loss, perhaps $100k. But you never know! Maybe someone will jump in and save the day ay his own peril. The 1806 O.112 is the finest known of the die marriage. It came out of a well known collection of preturbs at the fall Baltimore show in '06. It was offered to me at $13, 500, but this was beyond my budget. A well known eastern dealer who has made his living by getting coins in better plastic was a happy buyer. It fell off the charts for a time while it was being fitted for a new suit of plastic. It is a nice coin and at AU50, there is no real quarrel with the grade. But at AU58 in well respected plastic...

[MBA101]

Does this one belong in an AU58 holder ? I know this over date has very weak strikes but this one just does not look right .

I had Mark Feld look at this coin for me and it received a Thumbs down , after taking a better look at it I don’t know why I even asked him to approve it for me in the first place:-} .

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1124&Lot_No=675

 

This coin sold last year for $ 6,325 .

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=557

 

I would maybe consider paying an Au 50 price .

 

Thoughts ??

 

I think it could be had in todays market for 53 or 55 money. It is worth a shot. So many coins in this auction and I suspect there are just not enough buyers.

[MarkFeld]

I should add (so please consider it added) that there are a good number of neat coins included in the consignment. It's just that the group of coins struck me as more of an accumulation than a collection - that's not necessarily a bad thing. And I apologize to the consignor if I am mistaken in my impressions.

 

Regarding how the coins end up faring compared to what they cost - I have a small number of coins consigned to the sale, too. I bought them last year and don't expect their results to paint a pretty picture either.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

So, there are 9 examples of the 1817/4 half known. OK......... Without magnification, it is virtually indistinguishable from the 1817 which, if corroded such as this overdate, is maybe a $100 coin. However, because of nuances in the dies, it is now a quarter of a million dollar coin. Incredible! I just don't get it.

 

Yet, this just applies to the Capped Bust series. I have the rarest marriage variety with my 1874 CC half, yet it carries no premium. Go figure.

 

Yes, I understand the concept of supply and demand and the fascination and compulsion of collecting but this is waaaaaay overboard, in my opinion. I just don't get it.

There's more than "supply and demand" at work here. The bust half series has quite a collecting history backing up the rarity of various desirable die marriages, while the seated series does not. So the fact that a seated half (or other coin) is listed as R.8 doesn't elicit as much respect as an R.7 bust half since the odds of seated R.8 going down are far higher than the odds of bust half rarity ratings decreasing.

 

Brad, thanks for the in-hand commentary! Sorry - I won't be making Cincy. But you were supposed to make St. Louis in February ... How about we shoot for St. Louis again in July ?

[Desert Gold]

This discussion has been very interesting. I didn't expect these kinds of responses when I posted this thread, but I learned a lot. I didn't really look closely at any of the coins earlier since he doesn't have any gold up for sale. However, now that I look, I see that they were all purchased fairly recently.

[Mark T]

As is usually the case once the mail in bids are posted the prices move up.

No real bargains now other then that 1817/3 is still way below wholesale .

I am going to guess it goes for $ 2250 - $ 2500 hammer .