1796 DBD BB-64 NGC XF-40 (counterfeit?)

[Toad]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

[physics-fan3.14]

[bartlesvilleok]

Why in the world would you try to sale a $3000 coin with photos like that.

[MarkFeld]

I believe the coin and the holder are counterfeit and notified Ebay and NGC about that seller and that coin (as well as others) this morning.

[MarkFeld]

I also contacted the seller, who wrote back, indicating that he had the coins/holders checked out, was told they are counterfeit and is refunding money to the buyers. I hope he was telling the truth.

[Toad]

I believe the coin and the holder are counterfeit and notified Ebay and NGC about that seller and that coin (as well as others) this morning.

 

Did you catch the counterfeit PCGS slab they had for sale earlier?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1878-S-PCGS-TRADE-DOLAR-MS64_W0QQitemZ250406193861

 

Here's the "same" one sold on Heritage a year ago:

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=891&src=pr

 

I believe this seller will need serious scrutiny.

 

Ribbit

 

Ps: I messaged the seller about the PCGS coin and never got a reply.

[bsshog40]

It looks like it ended with a BIN. I don't see how anyone would buy this coin with those pics!

[Toad]

Why in the world would you try to sale a $3000 coin with photos like that.

 

BTW - it's not a 3 grand coin, it's a 50+ grand coin that sold on a BIN for 3 grand.

 

Ribbit

[MarkFeld]

I believe the coin and the holder are counterfeit and notified Ebay and NGC about that seller and that coin (as well as others) this morning.

 

Did you catch the counterfeit PCGS slab they had for sale earlier?...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1878-S-PCGS-TRADE-DOLAR-MS64_W0QQitemZ250406193861

 

Yes.

[physics-fan3.14]

Can someone tell me, either here or via PM for security reasons, what tipped you off that these were counterfeit? I can see the PCGS one looks off, but what did you notice about the NGC one?

[Mark T]

I also contacted the seller, who wrote back, indicating that he had the coins/holders checked out, was told they are counterfeit and is refunding money to the buyers. I hope he was telling the truth.

 

I think the seller is refunding money to cover his Arse. Check his feedback this is not the first time he refunded money becuase of a counterfeit coin.

[just-john]

after looking at his other stuff 1796 Replica 90%silver ?? that says replica on it

1796 bust half 15 star riplica ?1807 ex jules reiver buy it now $2150.00 Who would buy from this seller though it looks like a nice $3000.00 to $5000.00 a month it he has just one site which i doubht .ebay should contact all buyers in his history and inform them of the problem .If you buy from a seller like him who doesn't really hid the fact to much you deserver to be taken sorry

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Looks like a blatant fake to me.

[Toad]

Can someone tell me, either here or via PM for security reasons, what tipped you off that these were counterfeit? I can see the PCGS one looks off, but what did you notice about the NGC one?

 

What set me off was the attribution of BB-64. I went to compare it to another BB-64, to make sure it was one, then I found out a BB-64 was a R-8 coin and worth mid to high five figures and he sold it at a BIN for 3 grand? That is a Heritage coin at the very least, if not Stacks or better.

 

It would be one thing if it was a raw coin showing up on Ebay but for it to have been slabbed, the owner of that coin would be seeking to obtain the best funds possible and wouldn't be selling it on Ebay for 3 grand, if it was real. I further believe the seller knows more than they are saying.

 

Ribbit

[Toad]

Here's one more from that seller, except ANACS this time:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260386129997

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1874-CC-TRADE-DOLLAR-ANACS-SLABBED_W0QQitemZ250406188937

 

Here's the real one from Heritage:

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=451&Lot_No=7691&src=pr

 

By what we're finding, it looks like the seller had more than one of each of these, since he sold the "same" coin several times, sometimes listing the "new" one within hours of selling the earlier one.

 

Ribbit

[Toad]

Here's one more ANACS counterfeit:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250399098489

 

Here it is on Heritage:

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=451&Lot_No=7692&src=pr

 

I guess the seller has a box of these?

 

Ribbit

[Mark T]

Notifying E BAY is one thing but with something like this shouldn’t someone notify the Feds and the Postal Authorites?? I don’t trust EBAY will pursue this far enough. I suppose that ANACS and PCGS would pursue action when notified.

 

 

[Toad]

Notifying E BAY is one thing but with something like this shouldn’t someone notify the Feds and the Postal Authorites?? I don’t trust EBAY will pursue this far enough. I suppose that ANACS and PCGS would pursue action when notified.

 

Does Ebay actually do something about the fraud? Nope! They just cover it up by removing the auctions, whether ongoing or completed!

 

Ribbit

 

Ps: I didn't report a single one of these to Ebay. I notified ANACS, NGC (via this board) and PCGS and figured they'd be more than happy to take care of them.

[Smilie Puss]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

 

Toad, et.al.

 

Re: State or post identification of possible or actual counterfeit characteristics or other related information on message board for all interested in learning what to look for.

 

Thank you for the notice on a possible counterfeit but for the purpose of those not familar with the characteristics on this item would you identify why you believe this not to be genuine. We the ignorant challenged would like to learn what to look for in any counterfeit posted.

[Toad]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

 

Toad, et.al.

 

Re: State or post identification of possible or actual counterfeit characteristics on message board for all interested in learning what to look for.

 

Thank you for the notice on a possible counterfeit but for the purpose of those not familar with the characteristics on this item would you identify why you believe this not to be genuine. We the ignorant challenged would like to learn what to look for in any counterfeit posted.

 

That one was interesting. After determining several of that seller's other slabbed coins were counterfeits we looked at that one and upon investigating, we found out there are only a handfull of BB-64's out there (R-8) so if it was authentic, it's worth between 50 to 100 grand and possibly more. So, who in their right mind would sell a 50+ grand coin for a BIN of 3 grand?

 

That's what made us determine it was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab but maybe someone here can see slab attributes that are wrong, since I never took the time to look over the slab once I found out how rare the coin is.

 

Remember, birds of a feather flock together and there's more than one way to skin a cat. That sums it up on the counterfeit detection for that one.

 

Ribbit

[Smilie Puss]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

 

Toad, et.al.

 

Re: State or post identification of possible or actual counterfeit characteristics on message board for all interested in learning what to look for.

 

Thank you for the notice on a possible counterfeit but for the purpose of those not familar with the characteristics on this item would you identify why you believe this not to be genuine. We the ignorant challenged would like to learn what to look for in any counterfeit posted.

 

That one was interesting. After determining several of that seller's other slabbed coins were counterfeits we looked at that one and upon investigating, we found out there are only a handfull of BB-64's out there (R-8) so if it was authentic, it's worth between 50 to 100 grand and possibly more. So, who in their right mind would sell a 50+ grand coin for a BIN of 3 grand?

 

That's what made us determine it was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab but maybe someone here can see slab attributes that are wrong, since I never took the time to look over the slab once I found out how rare the coin is.

 

Remember, birds of a feather flock together and there's more than one way to skin a cat. That sums it up on the counterfeit detection for that one.

 

Ribbit

 

Thanks Toad

 

Yes I began to understand why you suspected this not to be geninue but I had to follow the thread for a while to pick up on this. On the orginal post it could have simply been stated: Due to rareity (R.n.) or low bidding price on item this coin and/or slab is suspected to be a copy or a counterfeit.

 

On the other hand, if this item were to be genuine you might be held liable from the seller unless you had direct proof or evidence to its orgin.

 

In the case for common counterfeit coins provide details on evidience of alteration or reproduction. This would, I think, be helpful for those not familar with this topic.

 

Thanks

[Toad]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

 

Toad, et.al.

 

Re: State or post identification of possible or actual counterfeit characteristics on message board for all interested in learning what to look for.

 

Thank you for the notice on a possible counterfeit but for the purpose of those not familar with the characteristics on this item would you identify why you believe this not to be genuine. We the ignorant challenged would like to learn what to look for in any counterfeit posted.

 

That one was interesting. After determining several of that seller's other slabbed coins were counterfeits we looked at that one and upon investigating, we found out there are only a handfull of BB-64's out there (R-8) so if it was authentic, it's worth between 50 to 100 grand and possibly more. So, who in their right mind would sell a 50+ grand coin for a BIN of 3 grand?

 

That's what made us determine it was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab but maybe someone here can see slab attributes that are wrong, since I never took the time to look over the slab once I found out how rare the coin is.

 

Remember, birds of a feather flock together and there's more than one way to skin a cat. That sums it up on the counterfeit detection for that one.

 

Ribbit

 

Thanks Toad

 

Yes I began to understand why you suspected this not to be geninue but I had to follow the thread for a while to pick up on this. On the orginal post it could have simply been stated: Due to rareity (R.n.) or low bidding price on item this coin and/or slab is suspected to be a copy or a counterfeit.

 

On the other hand, if this item were to be genuine you might be held liable from the seller unless you had direct proof or evidence to its orgin.

 

In the case for common counterfeit coins provide details on evidience of alteration or reproduction. This would, I think, be helpful for those not familar with this topic.

 

Thanks

 

On the others from that seller, we located the original on Heritage and compared the labels to see the descrepencies. Heritage is an excellent source for pedigrees. (thumbs u We've also use Heritage for locating pedigrees for notes that have been cut out of their holder and doctored to make them look better, then sold raw on Ebay for more.

 

Ribbit

[Smilie Puss]

Howdy peeps,

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately but I've been extremely bizy. Anyways, we (Coin Forgery Ebay Group) ran across this 1796 NGC slabbed Draped Bust Dollar that has been designated a BB-64, which only a handfull at best are known, so we believe it to be a counterfeit in a counterfeit NGC slab:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-SMDATE-LG-LETTERS-XF40_W0QQitemZ250406191070

 

I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

 

Ribbit

 

Toad, et.al.

 

Re: State or post identification of possible or actual counterfeit characteristics on message board for all interested in learning what to look for.

 

Thank you for the notice on a possible counterfeit but for the purpose of those not familar with the characteristics on this item would you identify why you believe this not to be genuine. We the ignorant challenged would like to learn what to look for in any counterfeit posted.

 

That one was interesting. After determining several of that seller's other slabbed coins were counterfeits we looked at that one and upon investigating, we found out there are only a handfull of BB-64's out there (R-8) so if it was authentic, it's worth between 50 to 100 grand and possibly more. So, who in their right mind would sell a 50+ grand coin for a BIN of 3 grand?

 

That's what made us determine it was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab but maybe someone here can see slab attributes that are wrong, since I never took the time to look over the slab once I found out how rare the coin is.

 

Remember, birds of a feather flock together and there's more than one way to skin a cat. That sums it up on the counterfeit detection for that one.

 

Ribbit

 

Thanks Toad

 

Yes I began to understand why you suspected this not to be geninue but I had to follow the thread for a while to pick up on this. On the orginal post it could have simply been stated: Due to rareity (R.n.) or low bidding price on item this coin and/or slab is suspected to be a copy or a counterfeit.

 

On the other hand, if this item were to be genuine you might be held liable from the seller unless you had direct proof or evidence to its orgin.

 

In the case for common counterfeit coins provide details on evidience of alteration or reproduction. This would, I think, be helpful for those not familar with this topic.

 

Thanks

 

On the others from that seller, we located the original on Heritage and compared the labels to see the descrepencies. Heritage is an excellent source for pedigrees. (thumbs u We've also use Heritage for locating pedigrees for notes that have been cut out of their holder and doctored to make them look better, then sold raw on Ebay for more.

 

Ribbit

 

Yes. I agree about researching and doing comparisons from Heritage Archives but I think Mark Feld gave a Heritage auctioned item that was counterfeit. Or did I misunderstand Marks post? I also saw one with a CAS sticker. Buyer beware!

[MarkFeld]

Yes. I agree about researching and doing comparisons from Heritage Archives but I think Mark Feld gave a Heritage auctioned item that was counterfeit. Or did I misunderstand Marks post? I also saw one with a CAS sticker. Buyer beware!

You definitely misunderstood (and misstated) what I did. My comments were in reference to a seller on Ebay, not Heritage.

[Toad]

Yes. I agree about researching and doing comparisons from Heritage Archives but I think Mark Feld gave a Heritage auctioned item that was counterfeit. Or did I misunderstand Marks post? I also saw one with a CAS sticker. Buyer beware!

 

Here's an example:

 

Ebay auction:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1874-CC-TRADE-DOLLAR-SLABBED-BY-ANACS-AU58_W0QQitemZ260383528816

 

Heritage auction:

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=451&Lot_No=7692&src=pr

 

Compare the letter placements on the obverse label to one another.

 

Ribbit

[Toad]

Yes. I agree about researching and doing comparisons from Heritage Archives but I think Mark Feld gave a Heritage auctioned item that was counterfeit. Or did I misunderstand Marks post? I also saw one with a CAS sticker. Buyer beware!

 

The one with the CAC sticker was a Heritage auction and it was authentic, which the Ebay one was missing the CAC sticker and the label was different, and as Mark has already stated, you did misunderstand him somewhere, which I dew quite often.

 

Ribbit

[Schatzy]

Toad......Great Post!! (thumbs u

[Toad]

Thanks Toad

 

Yes I began to understand why you suspected this not to be geninue but I had to follow the thread for a while to pick up on this. On the orginal post it could have simply been stated: Due to rareity (R.n.) or low bidding price on item this coin and/or slab is suspected to be a copy or a counterfeit.

 

On the other hand, if this item were to be genuine you might be held liable from the seller unless you had direct proof or evidence to its orgin.

 

In the case for common counterfeit coins provide details on evidience of alteration or reproduction. This would, I think, be helpful for those not familar with this topic.

 

Thanks

 

That's why I stuck a question mark behind "counterfeit" in the title. I left it open for discussion. A long time ago I posted something similar, that I still believe was a counterfeit, but I didn't stick a question mark in the title and I got slammed for it. I learned from that mistake so I didn't dew it again. However, with the coin in question, I'd be willing to bet it is a counterfeit. (thumbs u

 

Ribbit

 

Ps: This seller is being discussed all over the place:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=716052&highlight_key=y&keyword1=slab

[Conder101]

But back in December of 2007 Heritage DID sell a counterfeit first generation PCGS rattler slab as genuine. (Coin was real, slab was fake.)

 

It wasn't noticed until after the sale was over and the coin delivered to the new owner. I know they did contact the new owner, explained the problem and offered reimbursement. I don't know if the coin was returned or not.

[Smilie Puss]

Yes. I agree about researching and doing comparisons from Heritage Archives but I think Mark Feld gave a Heritage auctioned item that was counterfeit. Or did I misunderstand Marks post? I also saw one with a CAS sticker. Buyer beware!

You definitely misunderstood (and misstated) what I did. My comments were in reference to a seller on Ebay, not Heritage.

 

Mark

 

You are of course correct. I believe it was Toad that posted the PCGS Trade dollar with the CAS sticker. Sorry for the error