When did NGC first start using the FS jefferson designation?

[cncman-migration]

Can't seem to find the answer, I know they went to 5FS and 6FS but before that they only put FS for 6 steps and before that no designation. I sent in an old slab for appearance review and it came back FS I have some others I think will hit too.

[Schatzy]

Hello,

 

I don't know the answer but you could try using the ASK NGC fourm to get an answer!!............Conder might know!!

[cncman-migration]

I did about 2 days ago, they still haven't even posted my question much less an answer. I also asked a few days ago on CT but no answer there either.

[Raybo55]

I'd like to know the same thing.

 

Here is an example (I have posted these examples in the past), which image is not FS according to the holder?

 

 

Ray

 

 

PS I will post the holders within 24 hours, two of the coins are 67's and one is a 66 (two NGC and one PCGS)

 

 

 

 

 

[badger1-migration]

do you know if a contact mark cutting thourgh the steps would preclude FS designation even if the steps were defined?

[coinman1794]

do you know if a contact mark cutting thourgh the steps would preclude FS designation even if the steps were defined?

 

A contact mark will void the FS designation on a sharply struck coin.

[WoodenJefferson]

NCG Link to FS Designation

[cncman-migration]

Thanks, but that is the answer I already know, when they started designating 5 and 6 steps. Before that they only had FS and it had to be 6 steps, but before that they did not designate any FS to my understanding, so if you have a old holder that was 5 or 6 steps it may not have the designation if it was before that date (which no one seems to know) If anyone has an answer please let us know, there are alot of people that want to know, I emailed an NGC rep before but didn't get an answer there either.

[Schatzy]

Here is the list of the different holders http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248404&fpart=1

 

I figured this might help!!

[cncman-migration]

Thanks, that helps date somewhat, looks like I have 2 NGC 7 and one NGC5 I think they should hit 5 FS I guess I will just send them in for review anyways. If anyone knows the answer I would still like to know so post up if you find out!

 

Here is the list of the different holders http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248404&fpart=1

 

I figured this might help!!

[Raybo55]

Same order as above...

 

 

 

The one W/O the full step designation has the best steps IMHO and seems to be the oldest holder 1992ish?

 

[DWLange]

All NGC-certified coins labeled simply FS may be assumed to be 6FS, as that was our standard before adopting the two levels of designation.

[cncman-migration]

Honestly, why is this such a hard question to answer? Maybe it is my wording but I have asked this everyway I know how and I keep getting answers like the one below that I am already fully aware of and don't answer the question. THis is my last attempt to clarify before I just give up since I am sending the coins for a review anyway.

 

I understand that early FS designations were always 6 steps, I understand that at some point NGC decided to include a 5FS and 6FS designation. My question is when did NGC FIRST start using the FS designation? Have they always used it from the day they opened their doors or did it come about later? If later, then when? Sorry if this is such a hard question I never meant it to be so difficult. I can't make it any clearer if that doesn't work I will just let the thread die or you can lock it.

 

All NGC-certified coins labeled simply FS may be assumed to be 6FS, as that was our standard before adopting the two levels of designation.

[DWLange]

FS was in use when I came here in 94. It's likely that it was used since the outset of the company, since Full Step nickels were already a premium item.

[cncman-migration]

Ah, great, thanks that does help me narrow it down a bit. But I did get my 45p back from review today, looks good in the new edge holder, but they did add the FS designation to it, but thats it! No 5FS or 6FS, just FS. is NGC just using FS now or did they do that because it is an old holder and that means it is 6 step? Also, the same cert# is on there which is OK but how do I update my registry set since it still shows that cert as not being FS?

 

FS was in use when I came here in 94. It's likely that it was used since the outset of the company, since Full Step nickels were already a premium item.

[Smilie Puss]

cncman

 

I asked NGC the question where is it stated as a definition of what full steps is? I also requested they post a image of a '38' and '40' reverese so that everyone can see what a full step Jeffereson looks like. So far I have not seen a definition or posted image of either designation to date.

 

I believe the new NGC designation is FS no matter if it has five or six full steps. But I think the minimum is five.

 

A 1938 reverse can be very difficult to determine if the steps are not fully defined or step seperation. Also there is sometimes a rim ding slicing through one or more steps and may disqualify it as a full step Jefferson. A judgement call to be sure. In addition, it is usually the bottom two steps [midpoint] that are not complete struck up that are usually the problem.

 

If you have a fully struck six step coin this to me is more important than a five step coin and I would think six full steps would have the higher estimated value.

[WoodenJefferson]

Miss information can at times over shadow facts or common knowledge collectors share and know amongst themselves. The grading services have done a good job at determining what’s a Full Step Jefferson nickel and what is not. They also have put many coins into holders where the coins were not even close to being Full Step, but are designated as such anyways. It does not matter what service this maybe, they all make designation errors as such and you just need to be aware of these anomalies as they come up.

 

Buying and selling “sight unseen” is a common practice now days, with probably a 99% success rate. It’s that 1% that gets you to thinking, do these people really know what they are doing?

 

You have to belay a trust somewhere that an accurate and independently graded coin has been set before you. If you feel otherwise, try buying nothing but raw coins for a year or so and see just how you do.

 

Rule of thumb with Jefferson Nickels and Full Steps.

 

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps. It’s not going to say this in any definition, there are not going to be any pictures provided by the grading services…perhaps CAC might do as much like they did with FBL on Franklin halves, but for now, chat boards, coin web pages and good ole’ fashion digging will get you the best results.

 

Yes, there are nuances that prevent what you think might be full steps, only to find out later it will get disqualified. Small minute hits and tics across the steps, bridging and weakly struck spots could keep that coin from getting that coveted FS. Anytime you have to determine a diagnostic with a 10X loupe, there are going to be lots of variables between individuals.

 

Learn why the 5th step under the fourth column is always weaker in that area.

Learn about bridging and how that effects step separation.

Learn the differences between 1938 and 1939 and 1940 steps

Find out why the step count jumped to a minimum of 6 in the 1990’s

 

It would be a good idea to learn how to properly count steps by knowing where the top step is located, knowing what a riser is and then a treadle to count them going all the way down or all the way back up.

 

 

There are many years with many mint marks P,D,S where full steps are almost nonexistent. So when one of these Jefferson’s happen upon the scene raw or in a holder and you think it to be full steps, keep trying the top services until you get the green light.

 

In a marketing standpoint, keeping things vague and indistinguishable is a common practice in business. You do NOT want the customers getting smarter than you, if that happens, then you are no longer required. Let them do their job, we’ll point out their mistakes so they can make corrections and improve the company and product.

 

Good Luck and Good collecting.

[Schatzy]

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps.

 

You said that from 1990 thru present, 6 steps is required for FS designation.

 

Do you mean by PCGS, because NGC stills has coins with the 5FS in the cenus for 1990 - present coins!!

[cncman-migration]

Yea, I finally got my nagengast book a couple of weeks ago, it was like learning the set all over again. I am still wondering why on my reslab NGC put FS on my reslab not 5FS or 6FS.

 

 

Miss information can at times over shadow facts or common knowledge collectors share and know amongst themselves. The grading services have done a good job at determining what’s a Full Step Jefferson nickel and what is not. They also have put many coins into holders where the coins were not even close to being Full Step, but are designated as such anyways. It does not matter what service this maybe, they all make designation errors as such and you just need to be aware of these anomalies as they come up.

 

Buying and selling “sight unseen” is a common practice now days, with probably a 99% success rate. It’s that 1% that gets you to thinking, do these people really know what they are doing?

 

You have to belay a trust somewhere that an accurate and independently graded coin has been set before you. If you feel otherwise, try buying nothing but raw coins for a year or so and see just how you do.

 

Rule of thumb with Jefferson Nickels and Full Steps.

 

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps. It’s not going to say this in any definition, there are not going to be any pictures provided by the grading services…perhaps CAC might do as much like they did with FBL on Franklin halves, but for now, chat boards, coin web pages and good ole’ fashion digging will get you the best results.

 

Yes, there are nuances that prevent what you think might be full steps, only to find out later it will get disqualified. Small minute hits and tics across the steps, bridging and weakly struck spots could keep that coin from getting that coveted FS. Anytime you have to determine a diagnostic with a 10X loupe, there are going to be lots of variables between individuals.

 

Learn why the 5th step under the fourth column is always weaker in that area.

Learn about bridging and how that effects step separation.

Learn the differences between 1938 and 1939 and 1940 steps

Find out why the step count jumped to a minimum of 6 in the 1990’s

 

It would be a good idea to learn how to properly count steps by knowing where the top step is located, knowing what a riser is and then a treadle to count them going all the way down or all the way back up.

 

 

There are many years with many mint marks P,D,S where full steps are almost nonexistent. So when one of these Jefferson’s happen upon the scene raw or in a holder and you think it to be full steps, keep trying the top services until you get the green light.

 

In a marketing standpoint, keeping things vague and indistinguishable is a common practice in business. You do NOT want the customers getting smarter than you, if that happens, then you are no longer required. Let them do their job, we’ll point out their mistakes so they can make corrections and improve the company and product.

 

Good Luck and Good collecting.

[Conder101]

..Conder might know!!

Sorry Conder does not know because he was interested in the slabs themselves and not the cons and their designations.

 

It could probably be determined by looking at all the FS coins being offered on ebay over a period of time and identifying the NGC varieties they are on. The problem with this is it might be possible to trace them back to NGC 5 without too much trouble and eventually NGC 4, but NGC 1 through 3 appear so seldom it may take quite a few years to determine if it was used on NGC 2 or 3, and it may never be possible to tell if it was used on NGC 1.

 

Just looked on eBay and it may be harder than I thought. I did a search for NGC FS under Jefferson nickels and I don't believe I saw anything from before about 2002. There was some earlier material but it was found because it had FS in the title but not on the slabs.

[RGT]

You may have better luck with the Heritage archives.

[WoodenJefferson]

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps.

 

You said that from 1990 thru present, 6 steps is required for FS designation.

 

Do you mean by PCGS, because NGC stills has coins with the 5FS in the cenus for 1990 - present coins!!

 

I never mentioned a specific grading service by name because of the disparages between the services when it come to these types of designations.

 

You missed my point, that being a collector of Jefferson nickels who has studied and can pin point which have steps and which don’t, only rely on the grading services to give them an even playing field. At least when you have a coin that is in a holder with FS designation, you have a good chance that it is.

 

If I get a modern, say 1990 Jefferson nickel that has a FS designation, it had better have all 6 steps there, because that’s what the die at the mint imparted on the coin. If I have a pre 1990, the dies were heavily used and the master hubs were not as concise as the modern ones, so I expect to have 5 steps under the FS designation, regardless of what the services say.

 

A flipper really doesn’t really care if there are steps there or not, because all they are interested in is what the label indicates. No interest what so ever in the number of steps, just as long as they can get the extra designation money for the flip.

 

A good collector needs to rely on their own instincts and knowledge and to trust the top grading services in their assigned grade and designation to help assist them when collecting coins.

 

The key word here is to assist

[Smilie Puss]

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps.

 

You said that from 1990 thru present, 6 steps is required for FS designation.

 

Do you mean by PCGS, because NGC stills has coins with the 5FS in the cenus for 1990 - present coins!!

 

A flipper really doesn’t really care if there are steps there or not, because all they are interested in is what the label indicates. No interest what so ever in the number of steps, just as long as they can get the extra designation money for the flip.

 

A good collector needs to rely on their own instincts and knowledge and to trust the top grading services in their assigned grade and designation to help assist them when collecting coins.

 

The key word here is to assist

 

I agree buy the coin and not the holder. However, when it comes to a '38' reverse this can be tricky because some of these steps are ill defined.

 

Wasn't flipper a dolphin? I never knew dolphins (porpoise-any of a number of small related cetaceans,...) collected slabbed coins!

[Schatzy]

From 1938 through 1989, 5 steps is considered a Full Step nickel, from 1990 through today or Return to Monticello, 6 steps is required for the designation of Full Steps.

 

You said that from 1990 thru present, 6 steps is required for FS designation.

 

Do you mean by PCGS, because NGC stills has coins with the 5FS in the cenus for 1990 - present coins!!

 

I never mentioned a specific grading service by name because of the disparages between the services when it come to these types of designations.

 

You missed my point, that being a collector of Jefferson nickels who has studied and can pin point which have steps and which don’t, only rely on the grading services to give them an even playing field. At least when you have a coin that is in a holder with FS designation, you have a good chance that it is.

 

If I get a modern, say 1990 Jefferson nickel that has a FS designation, it had better have all 6 steps there, because that’s what the die at the mint imparted on the coin. If I have a pre 1990, the dies were heavily used and the master hubs were not as concise as the modern ones, so I expect to have 5 steps under the FS designation, regardless of what the services say.

 

A flipper really doesn’t really care if there are steps there or not, because all they are interested in is what the label indicates. No interest what so ever in the number of steps, just as long as they can get the extra designation money for the flip.

 

A good collector needs to rely on their own instincts and knowledge and to trust the top grading services in their assigned grade and designation to help assist them when collecting coins.

 

The key word here is to assist

 

 

 

I agree 100%.....I was just trying clarify what you were saying!!

 

I love looking for FS coins!!

[Conder101]

Wasn't flipper a dolphin? I never knew dolphins (porpoise-any of a number of small related cetaceans,...) collected slabbed coins!

They don't collect them, they just buy and sell them.

 

RGT, good suggestion about the archives, I'll have to check them out.