Smilie Puss Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I have often seen and have purchased NCS certified coins with a qualifier or descriptive label given as "Altered Surfaces", [MS or PR] Details". From NGC's Understanding "No Grade" Coins, a definition of Altered Surfaces is given: "A coin that has been treated in some way that changes its gereral appearance is said to have ALTERED SURFACES. A coins surface can be altered in many ways,......". The article goes on to mention a few of the methods that cause [physical] alteration such as whizzing, polishing [by machine or hand] or [chemical] alteration such as "fill in" substances such as lacquer [wax or oil]. PVC contamination may also be included as a surface contaminate but not considered as a "fill in" substance yet the surface has been altered. Its a matter of degree [not kind] of observable alteration. Rainbow toning may also be considered as surface alteration. Is rainbow toning different than 'as minted condition' to compare as to its gereral appearance? Altered Surfaces indicate something that was done to the coins surface inorder to deceive or hide impefections caused by mis-handling.or abuse. Does NCS know the method of alteration in all cases? I have trouble with the phrases: 'treated in some way', 'general appearance', 'can be altered in many ways'. These terms are vague and lack detail. How treated?. How is the standard or general appearance defined? How many[alteration] ways? The problem as I see it is in the vague definition of what 'is' or what 'appears' to be altered. For example, if I were stopped for speeding and the arresting officer said it looked like I was exceeding the speed limit. What evidence was there that I broke the law? The same may apply to the use of the term Altered Surfaces. Its more of a misnomer (?) term than what is in 'evidence'. In other words, what precisely was the [alteration] cause either chemical or physical evidence that can be provided if the qualifier or descriptive label be assigned and the coin returned in a NCS holder or worse in a body bag? What information does it give the submitter in return for his or her grading fee? Zero! Would like to have different points of view for those who wish to respond to the subject in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member CHRISS Posted February 6, 2009 Member Share Posted February 6, 2009 It is true that coins that have been improperly cleaned, whizzed, polished, and the like have altered surfaces. A coin in an NCS holder that has had a specific treatment of whizzing, cleaning, polishing, or the like will have that specific problem mentioned. Coins that are in NCS holders with "altered surfaces" most often are coins that have had their surfaces specifically altered in a way to make them appear to be something they are not. Most often this is a treatment to either the devices or fields to give the appearance of a cameo proof. Chris, NCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritter Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 if altered,no cameo,if cleaned etc,not.if you have a coin that looks cam.look again.probably not what u think it is.imo NOT.PICTURE WOULD BE NICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilie Puss Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Coins that are in NCS holders with "altered surfaces" most often are coins that have had their surfaces specifically altered in a way to make them appear to be something they are not. Most often this is a treatment to either the devices or fields to give the appearance of a cameo proof. Chris, NCS You use the phrase "most often" but avoid using the exceptions rather than the rule. It is my opinion that vague terminology or misleading labels like "First Strike" may not serve to benifit NGC/NCS in the long run. This also does not serve the customers best interest either and you can pass this on to your policy makers. I have heard from a trustworthy source that NCS holdered coins labeled "Altered Surfaces" [MS or PF] Details have been found NOT to have been altered, reholdered and given a nurmerical grade [MS or PR] by a reliable top tier TPGS. So much for your opinion on determining "Altered Surface" condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Wright Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 For us new to numismatics, it is heart breaking to get "no grade" from the big two appraisers. Also quite costly. A winner coin becomes a loser no one wants to buy. I'd prefer the companies just return my ungraded coins, without burial in plastic for all to see. I'll have to go "raw" to stay in the hobby. kenlee47 and Bill Kenner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
