"Altered Surface", The need for a more comprehensive definition?

[Smilie Puss]

I have often seen and have purchased NCS certified coins with a qualifier or descriptive label given as "Altered Surfaces", [MS or PR] Details".

 

From NGC's Understanding "No Grade" Coins, a definition of Altered Surfaces is given: "A coin that has been treated in some way that changes its gereral appearance is said to have ALTERED SURFACES. A coins surface can be altered in many ways,......". The article goes on to mention a few of the methods that cause [physical] alteration such as whizzing, polishing [by machine or hand] or [chemical] alteration such as "fill in" substances such as lacquer [wax or oil]. PVC contamination may also be included as a surface contaminate but not considered as a "fill in" substance yet the surface has been altered. Its a matter of degree [not kind] of observable alteration. Rainbow toning may also be considered as surface alteration. Is rainbow toning different than 'as minted condition' to compare as to its gereral appearance? Altered Surfaces indicate something that was done to the coins surface inorder to deceive or hide impefections caused by mis-handling.or abuse. Does NCS know the method of alteration in all cases?

 

I have trouble with the phrases: 'treated in some way', 'general appearance', 'can be altered in many ways'. These terms are vague and lack detail. How treated?. How is the standard or general appearance defined? How many[alteration] ways?

 

The problem as I see it is in the vague definition of what 'is' or what 'appears' to be altered. For example, if I were stopped for speeding and the arresting officer said it looked like I was exceeding the speed limit. What evidence was there that I broke the law? The same may apply to the use of the term Altered Surfaces. Its more of a misnomer (?) term than what is in 'evidence'. In other words, what precisely was the [alteration] cause either chemical or physical evidence that can be provided if the qualifier or descriptive label be assigned and the coin returned in a NCS holder or worse in a body bag? What information does it give the submitter in return for his or her grading fee? Zero!

 

Would like to have different but intellegent points of view for those who wish to respond to the subject in question.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

What information does it give the submitter in return for his or her grading fee?

It lets the submitter know that the grading company is of the opinion that the coin has been messed with and looks too unnatural for them to grade. Often, it is impossible to know precisely in what way a coin has been altered or cleaned.

[Smilie Puss]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" can or may be equated to the police officer giving you a ticket because he said " you looked like you were exceeding the speed limit". Go figure!

[MarkFeld]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" can or may be equated to the police officer giving you a ticket because he said " you looked like you were exceeding the speed limit". Go figure!

That comparison is off base. Generally speaking, speeding tickets are based on objective measurements of a driver's speed as compared to the legal limit. Coin evaluations, on the other hand, tend to be subjective in nature.

[YeahToast]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" ..... Go figure!

 

I'm inclined to agree that the "altered surfaces" designation on a body bag leaves much to be desired when describing the "NO GRADE". Graders are supposed to be pros, can't they at least venture an educated guess to justify keeping the fee? I don't mean a scientific treatise but how about something more than "It looked messed with." ?

[MarkFeld]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" ..... Go figure!

 

I'm inclined to agree that the "altered surfaces" designation on a body bag leaves much to be desired when describing the "NO GRADE". Graders are supposed to be pros, can't they at least venture an educated guess to justify keeping the fee? I don't mean a scientific treatise but how about something more than "It looked messed with." ?

If, for example, the graders noted that they believed an unknown substance had been added to the coins' surfaces, would you be satisfied with that?

[jesbroken]

While in a total agreement that all grading companies should give a semi-detailed explanation when it exists, I also realize that a grader's reputation is why they are paid for what they do. Quite often a grader may reject a coin, simply because in his/her opinion it does not look right enough for them to put their stamp of approval on it. It could be several things(such as coloring, odd toning, and an undescribable mark/smear/smudge,etc) and not really something a lay person would be able to deal with as an explanation for why their coin is rejected from a grade. The graders have a lot on their shoulders, with the huge guarantees their opinions provide for the public. This is why they have several different graders look at each coin. Should they all agree something is not right, then I fully support their decision(even after having several coins BB'd early on that I never understood why).

Nothing will ever circumvent the possibility of your coin being booted merely because all are having a bad day due to pressure, work overloading, or even illness. But if you feel you were mistreated, make a case with the powers that be and take your shot, or send the coin elsewhere. Your options do not end because of a bagged coin.

Good luck.

Jim

[TomB]

Your comparison of a speeding ticket with an opinion of altered surfaces is flawed in many ways, though I suspect you knew this when you wrote it originally.

 

As Mark has already mentioned, a coin can be intentionally altered in many ways with the motivation being to obscure a previously existing flaw or impart the appearance of a quality that otherwise would be absent. Truly, it would likely be impossible to give a precise definition of the alteration in many cases without employing any kind of destructive or expensive test. Even with such tests, the methodologies used to alter surfaces are only limited by the imagination of the person performing the task.

 

Unlike the rule of law, NGC and PCGS offer a service that is voluntary and that describes the results or benefits of the service. One aspect of that service is the altered surfaces determination and the parameters of the determination are described for all to read prior to submission. If one does not like these, or other, parameters then one is free to avoid this service.

[relicsncoins]

I would personally prefer that instead of sending the coin back in a flip that they sent it back in a count chocula mini. coffin. I would at least feel as though I recieved something back for my fee.

[YeahToast]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" ..... Go figure!

 

I'm inclined to agree that the "altered surfaces" designation on a body bag leaves much to be desired when describing the "NO GRADE". Graders are supposed to be pros, can't they at least venture an educated guess to justify keeping the fee? I don't mean a scientific treatise but how about something more than "It looked messed with." ?

If, for example, the graders noted that they believed an unknown substance had been added to the coins' surfaces, would you be satisfied with that?

 

Yes, if it said "SURFACE(S) TREATED WITH AN UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE".

 

~ Hey, MarkFeld, I am a from change collector who has never submitted a coin for grading/slabification but understand itsnow24u's confusion and concern. Paying the fee and having the coin come back with a "No Grade" and maybe no other explanation than "Altered Surfaces" leaves more questions than answers. What surfaces? Where? Any additional info the owner could be given would probably be appreciated.

[realone]

I have to join in here, I don't want a n "Altered Services" explanation, I want a definitive reason, puttied, oiled, thumbed, tooled, chemically treated etc. Please tell me the graders can't do that, or do they put it to their forehead like The Great Karmanc and close their eyes and say, " hmmm, ah Ed".........

[ldhair]

I don't see a way NGC or others could say for sure what was done to a coin.

At the same time I feel they do a good job of pointing out coins that just don't look right. More information as to why a coin was bagged would be really cool but if it's just a guess, is it of value?

[realone]

So are you saying if the grader says it doesn't look just right, and then it is bagged under the collective phrase altered surfaces does that make a whole lot of sense. Shouldn't a grader know what is specifically wrong with a coin or does that take more than 2 seconds and therefore cost prohibitive?

[TomB]

So are you saying if the grader says it doesn't look just right, and then it is bagged under the collective phrase altered surfaces does that make a whole lot of sense. Shouldn't a grader know what is specifically wrong with a coin or does that take more than 2 seconds and therefore cost prohibitive?

I believe that if someone knowledgeable looks at a coin and notices a surface problem that the decision of altered surfaces is a valid one even if a more in depth explanation is not given. It is clearly not possible to know what has happened to every coin and giving a guess, even if it is an educated guess, might not serve any greater purpose than simply pointing out the problem.

 

As an analogy, when you receive your grade, such as MS63 or whatever, you are getting a composite opinion of the grade without getting any information on the individual components of the grade including eye appeal, luster, strike, marks and the position of marks. If you are satisfied with a grade only then it may be consistent to be satisfied with an opinion of alteration without specifics as to what might have been done to the coin.

[RareSov]

"doesn't look right" is a subjective term. Highly skilled and experienced grader's don't use that term like you or I might.

 

Take it or leave it, they tell you what is wrong.. educate yourself and study the coin to find out the problem. If it IS something they could note for you, then you should be able to spot it as a collector. If not, you're probably in the wrong hobby..

 

If it ISN'T something they could notate (unknown) then it wouldn't help you except to know that they don't know exactly what was used ?

 

I really don't see the point except to be spoon fed and not learn as much.. NGC is doing you a favour

[realone]

I am paying a grading company to look over my coin, the least that they can do when they bb it is to tell me why and not in incredibly general all encompassing terms period. I would even pay extra for the exact reason if given the option. It is one thing if members were allowed to repeatedly submit the same bbed coin in and eventually at times receive a grade rather than a bb, but since it is obviously promoted then the least that they can do is stand by their factual opinion so maybe if I knew what was really wrong with the coin on that given day by that individual grader then maybe I would decline to send it in because it wouldn't help,because the coin isn't changing and the problem whatever it may be is staying with the coin.

[dean1345]

I am paying a grading company to look over my coin, the least that they can do when they bb it is to tell me why and not in incredibly general all encompassing terms period. I would even pay extra for the exact reason if given the option. It is one thing if members were allowed to repeatedly submit the same bbed coin in and eventually at times receive a grade rather than a bb, but since it is obviously promoted then the least that they can do is stand by their factual opinion so maybe if I knew what was really wrong with the coin on that given day by that individual grader then maybe I would decline to send it in because it wouldn't help,because the coin isn't changing and the problem whatever it may be is staying with the coin.

 

I agree with you Alan. It would be nice to know even if it is to educate you down the road.

[realone]

Thanks Dean, I love this hobby, and I don't mind jumping over hoops, which seems to be constantly put in front of me for which i have to constantly have out last and out wit. But one would think when I pay a fee to a professional grading service that if they were to say sorry no grade that they are expert enough to know why there is no grade and be gracious enough to tell me since the cost for a no grade is the same as the cost to get a grade. But I know I am a pain the arse and expect too much from a business in the business to grade.

[RareSov]

I think you would find it would be annoying, you are expecting to receive info and you get unknown contaminant, or whatever

 

Really it would help people who don't know what whizzed is for example, and then it would need to be further explained. Next up, an 200 word essay on your coins grade, by each of the graders and the finalizer !

 

Uh, no.

[Treeman]

"Take it or leave it, they tell you what is wrong.. educate yourself and study the coin to find out the problem. If it IS something they could note for you, then you should be able to spot it as a collector. If not, you're probably in the wrong hobby."

 

If it was something that "you should be able to spot as a collector", the coin wouldn't have been submitted in the first place. They should , at least, be able to tell you where the surface was altered, or what reason they have to believe it was altered. These guys (both services) have slabbed a lot of AT'd coins, so, if they reject a coin, it would be nice if they gave you a clue as to why it was rejected..

 

[Dcoin]

Keeping in mind that the question is about NCS, what is the big deal in assigning a general idea as to the problem with the coin? It’s a click of a button.

 

In many ways it will force NCS to take accountability for the label of 'altered surface'.

 

[jesbroken]

As an analogy, when you receive your grade, such as MS63 or whatever, you are getting a composite opinion of the grade without getting any information on the individual components of the grade including eye appeal, luster, strike, marks and the position of marks. If you are satisfied with a grade only then it may be consistent to be satisfied with an opinion of alteration without specifics as to what might have been done to the coin.

 

Well said, TomB. It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given, but demand it for a denial of grade.

I believe their exists a market for a grade/no grade complete explanation(most certainly at an additional fee).

Jim

[YeahToast]

It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given

 

Perhaps it is because with a copy of

1. Ruddy's PHOTOGRADE,

2. PCGS's OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION,

3. ANA's THE OFFICIAL AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION GRADING STANDARDS FOR UNITED STATES COINS

or any of the other grading references available a collector can determine why their coin received the grade it did.

[MarkFeld]

It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given

 

Perhaps it is because with a copy of

1. Ruddy's PHOTOGRADE,

2. PCGS's OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION,

3. ANA's THE OFFICIAL AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION GRADING STANDARDS FOR UNITED STATES COINS

or any of the other grading references available a collector can determine why their coin received the grade it did.

Hopefully you were joking. When the identical coin can receive 2 or more different grades (or grade, then no-grade or no-grade, then grade) if/when submitted more than once, how is the submitter to know why it graded the way it did? Often, a submitter is clueless as to why a coin graded the way it did, and that goes for instances in which the submitter is (incorrectly) quite sure about the reason.

[TomB]

It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given

 

Perhaps it is because with a copy of

1. Ruddy's PHOTOGRADE,

2. PCGS's OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION,

3. ANA's THE OFFICIAL AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION GRADING STANDARDS FOR UNITED STATES COINS

or any of the other grading references available a collector can determine why their coin received the grade it did.

You are absolutely and completely wrong with that statement.

[Dcoin]

It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given

 

Perhaps it is because with a copy of

1. Ruddy's PHOTOGRADE,

2. PCGS's OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION,

3. ANA's THE OFFICIAL AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION GRADING STANDARDS FOR UNITED STATES COINS

or any of the other grading references available a collector can determine why their coin received the grade it did.

You are absolutely and completely wrong with that statement.

 

I don't believe Toast is totally off base here. In the context of this conversation, the person sending a coin has many sources that could give him/her a clue as to a given grade.

 

Is it perfect? No, but what you see in those books is what its suppose look like.

 

When figuring out why a coin bagged, you are not given anything but the vaguest of ideas. NCS could do more to be accountable for an assigned designation.

[TomB]

If you think my absolute answer to the previously incorrect statement is too strident, then that is fair enough. Regardless, when one receives a grade it is a composite of strike, luster, eye appeal, marks and severity and placement of marks. One may read any and all books that one desires, but one will not necessarily know how each component was viewed or weighed. Without that information, any decision as to the precise breakdown as to why a coin received a certain grade is guesswork, even if the grade assigned matches the grade anticipated.

[MarkFeld]

It is curious as to why no one expects an explanation as to why a coin graded the grade given

 

Perhaps it is because with a copy of

1. Ruddy's PHOTOGRADE,

2. PCGS's OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION,

3. ANA's THE OFFICIAL AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION GRADING STANDARDS FOR UNITED STATES COINS

or any of the other grading references available a collector can determine why their coin received the grade it did.

You are absolutely and completely wrong with that statement.

 

I don't believe Toast is totally off base here. In the context of this conversation, the person sending a coin has many sources that could give him/her a clue as to a given grade.

 

Is it perfect? No, but what you see in those books is what its suppose look like...

Please give us an example from any of the books mentioned above?? You are free to select any two consecutive grades between 60 and 69 for a mint state or Proof coin. Please provide the stated standards for those two grades and show us how a person could know from that which coin is which, grade-wise.

 

Even if that would work, which it wont, there is no assurance that the grading companies use those standards, or that if they do, they do so consistently.

[YeahToast]

Then the purpose of grading guides is what? To employ loggers, papermakers, printers and bookbinders?

 

Again, I am a from change collector.

 

Why limit this to MS coins? I don't collect them so being able to tell a 65 from a 66 is not important to me. What might be of use is taking a graded coin and back tracking through text and photos to see why it might have gotten what it did. Descriptions, photos, glossary all provide information if I take the time to read and look.

[Dcoin]

The conversation started and should continue to be about the vagueness regarding the title 'altered surfaces' not about grading.

 

In reference to the grading question, the resources provided by Toast SHOULD give some indication between a given grade. If I can't tell a MS65 from a 65' Cadi then it’s my ignorance. The resources are readily available and therefore grades do not need to be explained by the grader any further.

 

The same cannot be said about the assignment of 'alter surfaces'.