Is the customer always right?

[truthteller]

I have been reading with great intensity a post that was written about the Baltimore show on the PCGS threads. One poster was adamant that dealers should show up on sunday, with several dealers posting reasons why they leave on saturday. It was very informative. One poster stated, "the customer is always right" in order to have a profitable business. In my several years of retail store business, I found this slogan to be absolute nonsense. I would see little or no loyalty in the retail end of the coin business, only the "cheap is best" philosophy or the buyer wanting 'free information" with no intention of buying or selling. Now, I am exlusively wholesale, and find that difficult enough, however, the time I spend buying and selling is quite profitable. I find many retail buyers expecting unreasonable service. Why is that? Are retail coin dealers a mini Wal-Mart? Buy it, don't like it, return it? Opinions?

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

 

[JamminJ]

Hi Truthteller,

Hope you've been well!

 

People that want to tap into your expertise without paying anything or having an ongoing business relationship aren't cutomers - they're freeloaders. A better slogan: "Freeloaders are never right (unless they're saying 'thank you')" People with strong sense of entitlement are generally not good people to try to do business with.

 

On the other hand, building a good relationship works both ways. It seems only fair that if you can buy a coin fairly in two places a good customer will steer his/her business towards the regular dealer or one who's generous with time and knowlege. Alternately, some stuff just doesn't turn up all that often so the usual dealer shouldn't be overly unhappy if you buy it elsewhere.

 

I saw that thread across the street but just couldn't read much, all those dealer bashing threads depress me. I was once disappointed by the last day of a Long Beach show, but it only took one time before I learned. Someone reasonably mentioned that with fewer customers things are not so hectic and dealers have time to chat. I've found that most dealers seem happy to chat with knowledgeable, polite collectors (time permitting) but dislike those who's only question is "how cheap can I get it?"

 

To conlude, I guess I'd the customer is not alwasys right, but he may be worth the benfit of the doubt from time to time. I don't envy people that have to deal with the public.

 

-JamminJ

[EZ_E]

I think that it is a mantra that serves the retail community well. It is not synonymous with tolerating rudeness but it entails treating the customer with respect and consideration. I've dealt with many dealers as a collector. Many of whom I've dealt with are outstanding business people but were very curt in dealing with their customer's. I will still deal with such businesses if they are on the up and up but it still reflects negatively upon their business. I would much rather deal with a pleasant individual than some grumpy crab of a person.

[EZ_E]

JamminJ sums it up nicely! Ditto.

[shadroch]

I'm not a coin dealer but have owned comic stores,bars and niteclubs.

One rule I've always stressed is be nice,because even if there is a problem at the moment, we hope to do further business with the person. however, if the person crosses a line and we no longer want to do business with them,treat them as they deserve.

[LucyBop]

Only if that Customer is the HepKitty! Then, I'm always right!

[TonerGuy]

I don't agree, I like Long Beach on Sunday. It's quiet, there's less commotion and I can usually find the coins I want easier.

 

As for the customer always being right -- a really astute business person will always at least let them think they are, whether they are or not is really immaterial. Just as long as they leave feeling positive.

 

Michael

[DonHeath]

When meeting a customer expectations would be unprofitable or unreasonable, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. The customers that expect that aren't right. Having said that, the sucessful business people are the ones willing to do what the unsucessful people won't.

[EZ_E]

When meeting a customer expectations would be unprofitable or unreasonable, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. The customers that expect that aren't right. Having said that, the sucessful business people are the ones willing to do what the unsucessful people won't.

 

Huh?

 

Ok, Don, have a cup of coffee and try again.

 

I think that you're saying that it is unreasonable to un-necessarily kiss a customer's bootay. (?)

 

 

 

I think that FrattLaw (Michael) sums it up nicely with the following statement:

 

As for the customer always being right -- a really astute business person will always at least let them think they are, whether they are or not is really immaterial. Just as long as they leave feeling positive.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

The bottomline about Sunday in a three or four day show is that the real buyers just aren't there. It's just not worth an extra day's expense to stay for a show on Sunday. The only reason that I can think of as to why show promoters continue to include Sunday in their schedules is that the facility forces them to rent the hall or convention room for the entire week-end. Otherwise, they should take the lead from Massachusetts show promoter, Tom Lacey, who did away with Sunday compltetely. He runs the show from Thursday night to Saturday afternoon, and I've never heard any complaints about the lack of Sunday hours.

 

Some collectors wonder why they should pay higher prices than those paid by wholesale buyers. The reason is simple. Selling to other dealers is easier that selling to retail buyers. Retail buyers sometimes return coins. I've never had a wholesale person do that. Retial customers sometimes what special services like collecting advice. Wholesale buyers seldom do. Some retail customers require you to come their place of business or their homes. This adds to your expense considerably. The state demands that you collect sales taxes on retail sales. There are exemptions for wholesale sales.

 

These are just facts of being in business.

[shadroch]

Some possible reasons why a show would be open on Sunday.

1) While the real buyers might not be there,Sunday is more of a family day and perhaps the next generation of buyers will be there. Failure to connect with them now means less later.

2)Don't most airlines require an Sat. overnite to get the cheap fares. Not needing to stay until Sunday could end up costing dealers more in expenses.

3)Promoters can offer weekend passes. Many are only used one day and promoters make more money.

4) People who rent the halls will most likely insist on entire weekend.

5) Nothing turns the public or any visiting media off quicker than empty tables.Coins, comics,stamps- whatever the show-we get little enough positive publicity and why risk the cub reporter, that does'nt want to cover your show in the first place,commenting or showing empty booths

These are just some possible reasons I don't think have been tossed around enough.

[gmarguli]

I don't know how the comic shows work, but for coin shows:

 

Some possible reasons why a show would be open on Sunday.

1) While the real buyers might not be there,Sunday is more of a family day and perhaps the next generation of buyers will be there. Failure to connect with them now means less later.

 

For the large shows the dealers don't care. These are not your typical dealers that want to encourage a young collector to collect coins. These are the dealers that want someone right this second to buy this $3,000 coin. Some of the smaller dealers that attend the shows might care, but for the most part they don't really attend the shows since they are priced out. They can't afford to spend $1,000 on a table and another $1,500 on room and airfare.

 

The medium show dealers might care and I'm sure the small show dealers care a little more, but sadly this hobby isn't promoting collecting among the young. The internet is also killing a lot of the small local dealers. I can think of probably 6+ smaller dealers that have gone out of business in the last 5 years. I'm lucky to be in an area where they are a lot of dealers, but these dealers were in business for a LONG time and they could no longer compete. These were the dealers that helped promote the hobby and nurture the young collectors.

 

 

2)Don't most airlines require an Sat. overnite to get the cheap fares. Not needing to stay until Sunday could end up costing dealers more in expenses.

 

In the last week or so I booked a flight for the FUN show in Florida. The price was the same for the airfare to leave on Saturday or Sunday.

 

 

3)Promoters can offer weekend passes. Many are only used one day and promoters make more money.

 

The bigger (national) shows are usually Thu-Sun and one pass is good for the entire show. Most coin shows I've been to sell a pass for the entire show rather than a day pass.

 

[BillJones]

) While the real buyers might not be there,Sunday is more of a family day and perhaps the next generation of buyers will be there. Failure to connect with them now means less later.

 

The problem is, shadroch, is that there is no one at the shows on Sunday. There are not kids; there are no families. There is basically no one.

 

I've been going to multiday shows since the early 1970s and Sundays were dead even then. Back then the perception was that all of the great buys had been made by the end of Saturday. As a matter of fact many thought that much of the show was over by the close on Friday, which is even more of a feeling today. That's why so many people make an effort to get to the shows by Friday and pay as much as $100 to get in on dealer day or dealer night Thursday.

 

The previous post was also right about the type of material is offered at these shows. You can't travel across the country to a show, sell cheap material and hope to earn a living. You have to bring expensive items that will make a return on your sales. For that reason there is not much at these shows that small collectors, who think that $200 is a lot to pay for a coin, can buy.

[IrishMike]

Customer is seldom right, you only have to allow them to think that they are. There is no fee to attend the FUN Show so Greg you can save a little money, nor was there a fee at the last Central States Show I attended. Neither the Central States Show or FUN are worth attending on a Sunday. The halls are almost empty. Saturday isn't much better, in fact last year I flew home on Saturday from FUN. Two days is plenty of traversing through the aisles.

 

We have a once a month coin show on Saturday and Sunday, so the kids have plenty of opportunity to shop for cheap coins.

[SilverEagleCoins]

Being a total customer and never had to be a seller I can say that I expect the dealer to do everything possible to convince me to buy something that interests me at the price that he is expecting. I don't view coins any differnet than me wanting to test drive a car, even if it's just to take a spin and burn some rubber and take up an hour of his time. I may not buy that specific car at that time but I do remember those dealers who treat me right when I am ready to buy. I can understand a dealer juggling 15 customers and not being able to provide one-on-one personal service all the time but I must be treated with respect.

 

A dealer's goal is #1 to try and sell coins but #2 maintain the goodwill of the brand/business name. With boards like this and PCGS a really bad experience can cost you on a large scale.

 

As for those dealers who pull out on Sunday, I equate that to a store that posts it's hours as closing at 5PM and when people show up at noon the store is closed. How many times have we had to work or stay at the office until 5pm, especially the day before a major holiday, even though there was nothing to do?

 

[Leothelion]

If there's a problem with dealer attendance on Sundays, why advertise a coin show for Sunday. There must be some constant kind of clashing going on between the promoters, facilities and the dealers. This problem has been going on for quite some time, for years. Yet there is no solution. There must be a push for the consumers but when they don't show, the dealers leave. And the ones that do show up on Sundays, what a kick in the head for the numismatic society!

 

Leo

[EVillageProwler]

I think the main reason why the slogan "the customer is always right" has achieved such popularity among the masses is because we are all customers. Yet, many of us are not generally sellers.

 

As for the question posed in this thread, I certainly do NOT think *I* am always right when I am on the buy-side of the counter.

 

I like to think of this slogan as a mantra for all the sellers that they need to treat their customer base with respect. Unfortunately, too much of the customer base have forgotten that they need to show respect in order to continue to receive respect.

 

Is there a slogan that acts as a counterpoint to the one mentioned above?

 

I was watching Battlestar Galactica tonight, and that show reminded me of how undeserving of our grace we humans sometimes can be. I know that we're really talking about the buy-sell relationship, and I am loath to blow this issue out of proportion. But, am I really getting off-topic? The way I see it, much of the man-vs-man issue is caused by a fundamental lack of respect that man have for others.

 

On the matter of Sunday attendance, it shouldn't be about blame. Blame is a form of disrespect. What that issue should be about is analysis and solution. And, in the end, perhaps there is no good solution to the problem... (There is no guarantee that every problem has to have a solution! And, how many years did we take to solve Fermat's Last Theorem? And how long did it personally take Dr. Wiles?)

 

JMHO,

 

EVP

 

[shadroch]

I've only been to about five coin shows in my life so I'm not all that familiar with them but they shoudn't be all that different.

If attendence is real sparse on Sunday, shouldn't that be the time to get bargins.

In a three day comic show,I will ty to get in as early as possible looking for underpriced books from dealers not up on current trends. After three or so hours that is moot. On Saturday and the first part of Sunday I'm at seminars,discussions ect. Late Sunday I'm on the prowl for bargins as dealers either look to recoup their table costs or just don't want to have to pack and haul the stuff home.

Are coin shows really that different?

[BillJones]

If attendence is real sparse on Sunday, shouldn't that be the time to get bargins.

 

No, not necessarily. Most dealers consider approach a bad show from two angles. The first is if you can't sell enough to make the show work, perhaps you can "buy your way out of the show." Buying is just as important and selling, and sometimes finding good inventory items or filling your want lists can make a show even if you sell butkus.

 

The second approach is "tomorrow is another day." If this show stinks, then maybe the next one will be better. BUT it won't be better if you sell quality inventory at a loss now just improve the cash flow.

 

The only time when I "dump a coin" is when I have messed up on the purchase of the piece outright, or I've owned something for what seems to be too long. If a dealer buys well, everything sells eventutally at a decent price. If he does not buy well, in this business you will not last very long because the mark-ups are really quite low.

 

Which leads me to my last point ... Really cheapskate collectors bug me. I've had a few pick the best coins in my case and then start to wave the Blue Sheet in my face. I'll tell you right now. If you have properly graded old coins (not modern), I'll PAY you Blue Sheet prices all day long. When you get an attitude with me because I won't sell to you at a loss at Blue Sheet prices, that's when you are not longer welcome at my table.

 

I've been invloved in other hobbies, and I'll tell you coins are the best when it comes to buying and selling. Few hobbies offer you the chance to buy an item, enjoy it, and then sell it at a profit. You might have to hold it for some years, but if you buy intellegently, you will make money over time.

[MikeKing]

In business, I like to take the attitude that 'the customer is always right' because I'm providing a service, and believe people should be given the benefit of the doubt, whatever that may be. That doesn't mean the customer is given free reign to behave any way they'd like...e.g., if they are offensive. However, I'll look upon someone who is being offensive and think to myself, why are they doing this? and then try to figure out if there is a solution (usually its out of fear, sometimes just pure greed). Sometimes the only solution is to set limits. Limit setting is a mature and fair minded approach in any relationship.

 

 

 

Blame is a form of disrespect.

 

That's an interesting point.

Often, when someone comes to you with a chip on their shoulder because they are blaming you for something someone else did to them, it obscures what could be an otherwise healthy relationship. There's a lot of disrespect around these days. But is today any different than yesterday?

 

 

[dakra]

I worked for a company in which the "Customer Was Always Right" and we basically worked by that Ideal... even though sometimes the customer was wrong. The thinking is that once you gain that customers trust, you may have that customer for life. If you do wrong by that customer, that customer will tell two friends about their bad experience, who will in turn tell two friend...so on and so forth. The customer technically isn't always right and I have several examples of so but sometimes you just need to treat your customers right so you can make them a customer for life.

 

I read the thread and wished I could have responded. Some great thoughts came from the thread but I think some dealers got a bit hot under the collar.

 

First of all, I was taught when you commit to something, you follow through. If you say you are going to dedicate time, dedicate your time start to finish.

 

Second of all, I can appreciate that you have family and other thing to attend to. Every few months, I work 70 hours a week for a few weeks. I miss my family, I have things to attend to at home but I put in my time. If a dealer knows that the show is 4 days, why can't they plan ahead of time for the extended weekend?

 

I'm not cold hearted though. If this is the way shows are going to be, then perhaps dealers should have input on the shows schedule. If dealers don't want to attend the Sunday show, why not end the show on a Saturday? ..and not advertise a show on Sunday? Dealers should talk to the promoters and state "no sunday shows". How about you try that out for one of the upcoming shows? Another suggestion was to let local dealers get tables for the Sunday show. I wouldn't mind that but I think it's up to the promoter and dealers to let us know which dealers are going to be at the show and when. If I'm planning to be at a show, I'd like to know what days my favorite dealer is going to be there. I don't want to show up on a Sunday assuming my favorite dealer is going to be there and then he/she isn't.

 

The thing that blows my mind is the show reports in which dealers state it was a fabulous show, they made tons of money, picked up great coins... if the show was so great, why did they leave early?

 

Unfortunately, not everyone can make it on a Thursday or Friday due to work, often it is a choice between Saturday and Sunday. How come you can't sell me the coins you picked up Thursday, Friday and Saturday on Sunday?

 

Some of this I say in jest but it would be nice to see some of the thoughts in the two threads become actions. Perhaps the Saturday show will be better if there is no Sunday show. Perhaps the Sunday shows would be better if the dealers commit to them. Only way to find out is by trial and error.

 

-Dave

[truthteller]

For the most part, I agree with what you say. I also agree that some dealers can get incensed over on the PCGS boards. Here's the major issue I have, LOYALTY of the customer. I have had several retail customers in the past, where I have spent countless hours educating and informing, especially with small purchases over a long term period. Then, when the customer wants to upgrade or make a major purchase or sell the collection, he/she decides to take the information gleened and use it to make purchases with other dealers or in a private sale. Of course, this is the perogative of the owner, but with smaller dealers, it becomes almost futile to service a customer that has no sense of loyalty.

 

 

TRUTH

[EVillageProwler]

Some of this I say in jest but it would be nice to see some of the thoughts in the two threads become actions.

 

How do we go about forming a committee that will really try to come up with actionable solutions? I've only been back into coins for about 7 years, and I believe the problem with Sunday attendance predates my re-entrance by a long shot.

 

If this issue were truly big enough, then I think we would have done something about it long ago. But, what would make it warrant such an action?

 

IMHO, what really matters is money. Like it or not, every industry adjusts itself to accomodate the money. If the money wanted Sunday attendance (either by dealers or by collectors), then it would happen. If the money didn't care, then we'll always have fringe voices chattering about a fringe issue that no one wants to step up and truly try to resolve.

 

I honestly don't mean to offend anyone by calling this a fringe issue, but the truth of the matter is that the from the perspective of capitalism, the money isn't affected in any appreciable way by a lack of Sunday attendance.

 

And, please don't brand me as another Gordon Gekko...

 

EVP

 

[dakra]

Hey Gordo

I don't think it's a major problems but people have voiced their complaints. I think I've gone to maybe one show that lacked dealers (left early?) when the promoter states there is going to be 50+ tables, I was hoping to see 50+ tables. I also went to a Baseball card show about two hours before it ended and 2 dealers were left, the rest were packing up. Again, I was rather disappointed. When I see dealers packing up, I figure the show is over and in the two cases above, I left without spending any money....

 

Although it may not be a major problem, it wouldn't hurt to experiement a bit with not having a show on Sunday and then perhaps having a show on Sunday. Dealers do have some say with the promoters...right?

 

 

Eventually, I'd like to make it to one of these out of state coin shows but Saturday would most likely be a travel day for me... I want to see all the dealers I know and love come Sunday

 

-Dave

[EVillageProwler]

I want to see all the dealers I know and love

 

How 'bout if they leave their pictures at their tables for you?

 

 

Seriously, though, I think it would be nice if people tried to do something. That is, something non-punitive. Like I wrote earlier, I'm still a relative newb to this issue. Perhaps the carrot approach has been tried. Dunno.

 

For those who care, perhaps a grassroots effort may be in order. (BTW, I honestly do NOT care because I prefer to spend my weekends doing something non-numismatic. I think I've spend only TWO Sundays at a coin show as a collector, and barely more than that for Saturdays.)

 

EVP

 

[SilverEagleCoins]

The other thing that bothers me are stores that begin to vaccuum and clean up before closing time. If I enter a store at 8:45 PM I expect their undivided attention until I leave or at the very least until the store is closed to new customers. Dealers closing and packing while the show is still going bothers me because to me it means they don't think my money is as good as the first guy who came in at the very beginning.

[TomB]

The other thing that bothers me are stores that begin to vaccuum and clean up before closing time. If I enter a store at 8:45 PM I expect their undivided attention until I leave or at the very least until the store is closed to new customers. Dealers closing and packing while the show is still going bothers me because to me it means they don't think my money is as good as the first guy who came in at the very beginning.

 

I'll reply to this one specifically because it applies to major shows, regional shows and monthly shows. I've never taken a table at a major show, however, I do take a table at a large monthly show and I also take a table at regional shows.

 

At the monthly show, when I pack up and the show is still officially running, it is not because I think someone's money is no good or is worth less. It is a value judgement I make based upon me. As an example, my partner in the monthly shows is from the Poconos (PA) while I live near Providence (RI). We take a table in northern NJ and each of us drives approximately 2-3 hours, each way, without traffic. We are set up before 9:00 AM and leave by 3:00 PM. The show officially ends about 4:00 PM. Our decision is based upon how we value our time. We each have families and non-numismatic full-time jobs. My partner and I have dinner together after we pack up and then he visits his brother in NJ while I visit my mother in NJ. Typically, neither of us gets home before midnight.

 

We both know, from our years of experience, that the shows "peak" from 10:00 AM to noon and then steadily decline in both attendance and activity after this point. We like to stay open later than most folks simply to be able to allow people who come in late the opportunity to see coins. However, we value our time such that by 3:00 PM we are shut down. It is unfortunate for those who cannot make the show before that time, but we do not owe anyone an apology for our decisions and they are not based upon what we think of other people.

[BillJones]

We both know, from our years of experience, that the shows "peak" from 10:00 AM to noon and then steadily decline in both attendance and activity after this point.

 

You make a good point, Tom. I've seen the same thing. One day show promoters advertise that they are open until 4 PM. Yet if a collector were to show up at 3 PM there is a good chance that he will see a virtually empty hall. Continuing to remain at a one day coin show after 3 PM is akin to showing up to multiday show on Sunday. There is just no busines or virtually no business to be had.

 

10 to noon is the "golden business time" for one day shows. I've often asked collectors who wanted me to help them with information and advice to see me at 1:00 PM. Usually it is pretty quite by then, and I will have plenty of time to give them some personalized service.

[SilverEagleCoins]

My office remains open 8-5PM with the order desk open until midnight every night except major holidays. Anything after noon on the Wednesday the day before Thanksgiving or after noon the last day before Xmas and New Years is a complete waste of time. However we remain open for business because those are our hours.

 

Tom I will not argue the value of anyone's time. Reading your well thought out posts earns you my respect so I value your opinion. Having never been a dealer and walking in dealer shoes I cannot say whether it is a good or bad decision. Speaking strictly as a consumer, I know I don't like it to see dealers wanting to get out of there as I am trying to work my way through.

[BillJones]

If a customer is trying "to work his way through" I'll stick around. Most of the time by 2 to 2:30 there are not any customers around who are out to buy anything. When I worked the monthly Nashua show in New Hamshire, I was always among the last to leave. And the guy who ran the show used to get on our backs if we stayed too late, which was well before the 4 PM closing official closing time.