Fugio Copper - 12-S or 12-LL or ????

[Toad]

Howdy peeps,

 

I've recently acquired another Fugio for my collection but I'm having a dizzy of a time figuring out its variety. Originally, I thought it was a 12-S but as far as I can tell, the S reverse never had recut rings and a friend told me the LL reverse is noted as having distinctly recut rings, but I cannot find a pic of a LL reverse.

 

Does anyone have pics of a LL reverse? Or, is it possibly another reverse?

 

Ribbit

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ps: It could also be a double struck 12-S and that's why the rings look recut?

[Fletcher]

That is not an LL as the O in ONE is touching the ring ... it looks to me like you have a 12-S.

[Toad]

I just got off the phone with a friend and we came to the same conclusion. But we couldn't figure out if the rings had been recut or it was restruck. Since the doubling is symmetrical, we figured it was double struck, since machine doubling didn't occur with screw presses, however, it could have been recut but there is nothing written about it in his book.

 

Thanks!

 

Ribbit

[wtc911coins]

very nice coin, love the Fugio Cent

[michael]

sweet, tender fugio

[Conder101]

But we couldn't figure out if the rings had been recut or it was restruck. Since the doubling is symmetrical, we figured it was double struck, since machine doubling didn't occur with screw presses,

What makes you think that? The early screw press coins are well known for MDD coins. (They used to be called chatter strikes and some of the early attempts at cataloging the die varieties used to give them fractional variety numbers N-3 1/2, 3 3/4 etc.)

[Toad]

It's hard to rationalize a screw press creating machine doubling. How do you "chatter" the stamping with a screw press? You go one direction then you go the other to complete the process.

 

So, you are saying they'd go one direction to stamp the coin originally, slightly back the other, then back the original direction to restamp the coin. That's the only logical way I can see it working and with that way it isn't MDD, it's double stamped.

 

If you can explain how machine doubling can occur with a screw press, I'm all ears.

 

Ribbit

[Conder101]

Same way as with the current presses, something is loose and shifts during the strike, In the case of the screw press the upper die is probably loose in its retaining cup. The screw press actually has two forms of motion going on during the strike. There is rotation from the screw and vertical movement of the die holder. As the die holder is decending the screw turns freely on the op of the die holder, but as it begins striking the coin that turning of the screw is no longer free and it applies a torque or twist to the die holder as well. The die holder to typically attached to the frame of the press by a rider that moves up and down the frame with the as the screw goes up and down. One of the jobs of that rider is to keep the die orientation correctby keeping the die retainer from shifting.. Over time ans use this rider can become worn and "loose" which will allow that final torque from the screw to twist the cup and die during the strike resulting n MDD.