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1799/8 Draped Bust Dollar NGC MS-63 (Ebay Fraud?)

Started by Toad,

58 posts in this topic

Toad

Toad

Posted
Posted

Howdy peeps, :)

 

The following item was recently listed on Ebay by a newbie seller and it appears that it's a stolen photo scam:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-1799-8-1-Draped-Bust-Silver-Dollar_W0QQitemZ250356181905

 

We all know what that is worth and it didn't come close to obtaining that amount but that is probably due to the serious collectors staying away, due to it most likely being a scam. We, the members of the Coin Fraud Group on Ebay, cannot locate where this photo came from so I was hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on this.

 

If anyone here knows where this photo came from, or better yet, who really owns the coin, we would appreciate your help in getting to the bottom of this situation. ;)

 

Ribbit :)

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Toad

Toad

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Ps: I just realized it hasn't sold yet. The CFE member that posted it, made me think it had ended already and I didn't look to see it hadn't. ;)

 

My bad! :D

 

Ribbit :)

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Toad

Toad

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I think it's a legit B-3 but how many sellers on Ebay start off selling a umpteen-thousand dollar coin for their first sale? ;)

 

Ribbit :)

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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I'm not sure where the photo came from, but the reverse pics make it looks like an obvious fake. The seller probably took his own pics of this "chinese fake."
Based on the images, my guess would be that the coin is genuine. But based upon the circumstances of the listing, I don't doubt that one way or another, it's a scam.
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gpnyc

gpnyc

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Wait a sec...look at the clouds closest to the wings...those are not normal. FAKE!

 

The clouds and star pattern are correct for a 1799/8 B-3. The oversize clouds are there to cover two extra stars which were inadvertently engraved over the eagle.

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Toad

Toad

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I don't collect these so I'm not the best at telling the authentic ones from the fake ones but if it is a fake, it sure would fool me. ;)

 

Ribbit :)

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BillJones

BillJones

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Wait a sec...look at the clouds closest to the wings...those are not normal. FAKE!

 

The clouds and star pattern are correct for a 1799/8 B-3. The oversize clouds are there to cover two extra stars which were inadvertently engraved over the eagle.

 

Yes, you are correct. Years ago I owned one of these coins. The trouble is the guy's photos are so bad you can't tell what's going on with the obverse, and YES, is not the best choice for an eBay newbie's first offering.

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RI AL

RI AL

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I am way out of my league on this one, but a few minutes of looking at the E-Bay pictures (difficult to see clearly) show some differences from B-1, B-2 and B-3 in Bolander. Maybe it's nothing, but star 1 in all 3 Bolander illustrations points to the bottom of the second curl. The E-Bay coin shows the star pointing to the top of the second curl. The second S in STATES is much broader than in Bolander. Finally, there is a wider space between the I and C in AMERICA on the E-Bay coin than in either variety of Bolander. Especially in B-3, the I and C seem closer in Bolander.

 

Maybe I'm looking too hard...but in Bolander the left tip of the ribbon on the reverse comes to a fairly neat point. The E-Bay coin shows it sort of fat and distorted. Something is going on with the left wing tip on the E-Bay coin and the highest right wing feathers come to a flat end on the E-Bay coin instead of a point on the Bolander pieces. This is a stretch, the top of the nose on the E-Bay coin seems to touch the eye with no bridge and if we are talking about B-3 here, the star over the UM in UNUM is too far to the left on the E-Bay coin. B-3 shows it almost centered over the UM. Finally, many of the stars on the reverse are misshapen on the E-Bay coin.

 

Like I said, I am way over my head on this, and the pictures aren't too good either (!) but if it were me, I would RUN from this offering.

 

Would anyone recognize if there are any indications that the slab might be a fake?

 

Alan...hopefully not blushing from embarrasement :blush:

 

Oh...the 0 feedback is a bit of a downer too...

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RI AL

RI AL

Posted
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Wooden Jefferson.

 

Good observation there. I didn't notice the MS 63 and "circulated" designation.

I see the bidding is up to $3000 this morning. This gets more interesting by the minute...

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BillJones

BillJones

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Description

 

Grade: MS63

 

Condition: Circulated :insane:???

 

From what I can see in the picture, the coin does not appear to be Mint State. Perhaps the Chinese are getting better at "circulating" their creations.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Description

 

Grade: MS63

 

Condition: Circulated :insane:???

 

From what I can see in the picture, the coin does not appear to be Mint State. Perhaps the Chinese are getting better at "circulating" their creations.

Looking at the top right hand picture of the obverse, it looks as "MS" as many I have seen in NGC and PCGS holders.
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Toad

Toad

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Update:

 

Another member of the CFE Group on Ebay has informed us the seller's name is Su Thien Vuong and emails with the seller make this item very questionable now. Another member has mentioned problems with the slab and even the coin, so if someone here has an ear at NGC, please ask them to look into this. ;) There may be more to this than a stolen photo scam. :o

 

Ribbit :)

 

 

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EZ_E

EZ_E

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$3000

 

It never ceases to amaze me at how stu-pid people really are. Come on! Zero feedback, know scams and counterfeits rampant. And notice that the high bidder has over 4000 for a feedback score. Maybe he's pulling a M.Feld?

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Toad

Toad

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And notice that the high bidder has over 4000 for a feedback score. Maybe he's pulling a M.Feld?

 

No comment! ;)

 

Ribbit :D

 

Ps: There's a reason I said pass the popcorn. :popcorn: This won't be ending when it ends and now the seller has struck a deal for an off Ebay sale of the item. (tsk)

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RI AL

RI AL

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Not to beat a dead horse,

 

but I was just looking at the listing again for the 1799/8 dollar and in the listing is clearly states, "The seller does not accept returns for this item". I sure wish there was a way to contact the bidders before it's too late. As it stands now...someone may be out at least $3000! Maybe I'll figure out a way to contact E-Bay and see if they can quickly investigate.

 

RI AL

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RI AL

RI AL

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Even MORE beating of a dead horse, where does one look up legitimate NGC slab numbers? Someone here suggested that perhaps the slab label is legit on the 1799/8 dollar but a fake coin has been substituted??? Am I understanding this correctly? I tried to determine if the slab was a fake but of course, it was impossible to check spellings in the logo or to see if the dashes were straight or angled...and the center top seal doesn't look right with all the "blank area" to its left..

 

RI AL...

 

PS...just now received an answer to my question to the seller if he would guaranty authenticity of the coin. Su Thien Vuong says "yes". ...whatever THAT'S worth since he won't accept returns on the coin..

 

Toad supplies the popcorn, I'll do the beer and pizza (hold the anchovies) as the epic continues. :o Toad, what makes you suspect that an after-auction deal has been struck?

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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Even MORE beating of a dead horse, where does one look up legitimate NGC slab numbers? Someone here suggested that perhaps the slab label is legit on the 1799/8 dollar but a fake coin has been substituted??? Am I understanding this correctly? I tried to determine if the slab was a fake but of course, it was impossible to check spellings in the logo or to see if the dashes were straight or angled.

 

RI AL...

 

PS...just now received an answer to my question to the seller if he would guaranty authenticity of the coin. Su Thien Vuong says "yes". ...whatever THAT'S worth since he won't accept returns on the coin..

Here is where you can do a cert verification

 

I believe that you need to be logged in to a Collector's Society account in order to be able to do so. HOWEVER there are many counterfeit grading labels and holders out there, so the fact that a search indicates that such a coin exists doesn't mean the one in question is genuine.

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