Proof 1892 ZAR set

[Banff-migration]

Dear Members

 

I first posted this message in the watercooler, so if you see it twice, please forgive my first misdirected attempt, as the moderators may kindly move that thread over here.

 

I recently acquired a set of Proof 1892 ZAR coins and am hoping for some wisdom from the better informed.

 

I am interested to know if any other COMPLETE sets (graded or not), exist.

 

I am also interested to know what the members feel this set may be worth, which I assume will depend on grading results, but some ideas will be much appreciated.

 

Thank you and I am pleased to be allowed on this board.

 

Chris Annandale

Canada

[World Colonial]

I collect South Africa and have for just over 10 years. I have about 200 NGC and PCGS graded coins in my collection though only a handful of ZAR and none of the 1892 proofs. (I have been a seller of ZAR in the last year.)

 

I have seen two other complete 1892 proof sets for sale or at least they were listed as proofs since I did not have the opportunity to inspect them in person.

 

The most recent one was at the December 2008 Cayon Sale in Madrid Spain which you can access in the Sixbid.com completed sale section. This was a raw set and I did not check the sale price nor do I know if it actually sold.

 

The other was in a British auction though I cannot remember which one. It may have been Baldwin's. This was also a raw set.

 

You can also check the NGC (or PCGS) census though this will not tell you if a complete set is owned by one person. However, NGC has graded many of the individual coins (though some may be duplicate submissions) and I consider it likely that one or more of them are complete sets though I cannot confirm this nor would I have any idea who the owners are.

 

I do not recall seeing the penny, 1/2 Pond or Pond sold outside of these instances. I have seen the other coins sold individually many times.

 

My suspicion is that most of the "elite" coins in both the ZAR and Union series are owned by a handful of world class collections in South Africa, the UK and maybe the US because these coins almost never come up for sale or at the least, I have never seen them.

 

By "elite coins", I would include the Kruger patterns, the 1874 Thomas Burgess Patterns, the Union Patterns, the three 1892 proofs I mentioned and some of the Union coinage such as many of the KGV proofs and business strikes such as the 1931 tickey, 2 shilling and 2 1/2 shilling.

[Banff-migration]

Thanks very much for the reply. I appreciate it very much indeed.

 

I bought the set at Cayon and also a few other sets and loose coins at the sale, so I suspect that means two others may exist. The PF set penny is not proof and neither is the S/S Pond ( it would not be anyway, if it was it would have been unique), but it is very near flawless.

 

NGC and PCGS have only certified two PF 1 Pond (no higher than 64) and six 1/2 Pond ( up to PF 66 ). It would be possible to make a set up, but the keys are the gold coins and the Penny.

 

I also collect the patterns and most of these are not too hard to come by, even in higher grades. I personally feel the patterns are really undervalued and will do well over the years as investments. Only 50 to 100 of each were made.

 

I also bid on the Burgers Pond, 99 Overstamp and Sammy Marks Tickey at Cayon and chased them all up to record levels, but alas a few other folks wanted them more than me. They were all superb and the BP was probably the best one that will come to sale in my lifetime.

 

The King George series is going to be another winner in the long run, due to limited mintages.

 

Best for now and thanks again.

 

Chris: cannandale@gmail.com

 

 

[World Colonial]

I am not surprised that the coins you mention are not proofs because Cayon is not a specialist in South Africa.

 

I was the buyer of lot 4547, the 1952 Specimen set though I am annoyed that they awarded the lot to me at maximum bid. (I should have had a dealer represent me but was afraid they would fail to bid.) I doubt very much that anyone else bid near what I did but I wanted the coins because I may never have another opportunity to buy them.

 

I agree with your comments except for these. The patterns you mention I consider relatively overpriced if they are the ones I think they are. The 1888-1890 pennies in my opininion are not really that scarce if there are actually 50 or 100 of them. They are not that hard to find and I would much rather use that money for high grade ZAR business strikes or KGV. (Like the 1893 set in the Cayon sale.)

 

The Sammy Marks tickey is one of the Kruger patterns I was referring to but I also consider it relatively overpriced. Even though I understand that only a fraction of the reported mintage of 215 is either available or not impaired, it is the only one from this group that comes up for sale with any frequency (I saw one of the others once in a Baldwin's auction but that is it).

 

The Burgers Pond and 1898/99 are relatively rare. I have seen more of the BP (fine beard only; never the course beard) and I consider them both better values than another scarce coin such as the 1902 Veld pond. That coin is a legend to be sure but with an NGC census of over 100, I think it should sell for somewhat less.

 

Thanks for your email. I would be happy to exchange messages in the future as there are few other South Africa collectors that I know.

[Banff-migration]

You would be most welcome to email me directly and thank you for your comments. I am a newbie at coins, although I have been buying bullion for years.

 

I also bid on # 4547 and as far as I remember. my bid was around $600 Euro. I bid on the phoone as I have had the dubious privilidge of paying my maximum comission bid many times (even at Sothebys, Christies and Heritage). I just dont bid on anything except by phone any more for this very reason. I think the set is in fact unique. That was a good choice, as it will not come around again.

 

There are not many collectors of South African material and as pattern collectors usually form around 1% of coin collectors, I suspect this explains why they are still relatively easy to find. I am going to complete the set of Penny Patterns and hold on to them. Some of the other patterns are harder to find in good grades and also very pricey. I think I'll stick to the Pennys while they are still plentiful.

 

I am really sorry I didnt stretch a bit more for the Burgers Pond at Cayon, but when it got to 75 K Euro, it meant with commission cost, over 85 K Euro, which was high for an ungraded coin, so I called it a day. I think the 1893 Set may have been a more solid choice, but I didnt go after it hard enough. Anyway, my budget is not limitless.

 

It is hard to say where the market will go, but as gold goes up in the next decade, so will rare coins, so if you buy the rarer stuff and the better coins, you can't lose out. The inflationary cycle is still being held at bay, but not for much longer.

 

Thanks and do write.

 

Chris