Incused Indian gold is a fascinating study of one aspect of strike quality...

[James_OldeTowne]

... which is the quality of the planchet prior to being struck. We know that planchets intended for proof striking are carefully prepared for that purpose, being polished and specially rinsed prior to being struck. This pre-processing removes planchet imperfections and the tiny nicks and bruises that are commonly present so that they will not still be there after being struck.

 

However, if you ever get a chance to look through a large number of Indian gold coins certified in uncirculated condition (pick MS-62, for example), it can be very disconcerting how many nicks, scratches and dings are permitted for that grade. Some of these coins look rather heavily circulated because of so many contact marks in the fields.

 

What can be forgotten is the fact that those are not contact marks that occurred after striking, but rather, they were there before the coins were struck! Now, on coins of normal relief (not incused), the dies eradicate many marks in the fields, because that is the highest point of the die (remember that the highest point of the die strikes the lowest point of the coin, and vice versa). Since the fields are the highest points of the die, they strike the planchet first, and do most of the "pushing" of the metal, which means the pre-existing contact marks are to some extent hammered out of existence. But we know that contact marks may remain on the devices, especially the high points, since that is where the die is most deeply recessed and has the least contact with the planchet.

 

On incused Indian gold, the fields are actually the lowest relief area of the dies, and so that is where the least amount of striking pressure took place. This is why the marks on the original planchet so often remain - there was not enough striking pressure to hammer them away. The fields are the last part of the die to make contact with the planchet, and so have the least capability of eradicating contact marks.

 

When I first began cataloging, I didn't understand this, and had for awhile come to the conclusion that every incused Indian gold coin in existence was overgraded ! As I've cataloged a lot more of these coins, I've come to understand that you pretty much have to grade by contact marks only on the Indian and eagle motifs themselves, as that is the only place where significant die pressure was available to remove pre-existing defects.

 

One thing is for sure, my appreciation of these gold coins has become greatly enhanced over the past couple of years of cataloging them!

[RWB]

Excellent observations!

 

Another impediment to good looking Indian gold coinage is the absence of a well defined rim. On most coins, the rim and edge collar work together to distribute metal into the design during the strike. But Indian $5 and $2.50 have no real rim so only the edge collar is left to do the work. This produced the pseudo-rim seen on many of these coins and contributes to poor design detail. Additionally, to avoid a fin on the coins, the mint deliberately upset the blanks too small. This resulted in coins with stars and lettering running off the field and poor edge reeding.

 

In researching these pieces for Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 I was struck (no pun intended) by the complete absence of testing prior to production and of the silence maintained by Charles Barber during the entire design and production phases. There is not one recorded “squawk” of objection from Barber, who, in other situations, was not hesitant to speak out. There is praise by Dir. Leach for the work, but that is all.

 

The $2.50 denomination was officially discontinued by Congress in 1930.

 

[rrantique]

Great post James and Roger very interesting.

 

Edited : Sorry Mr. Burdette

[physics-fan3.14]

Very interesting. Great info James and Roger.

[BankNote1]

Very interesting!

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for a most interesting post. And, while I feel a bit like a nit-picky and mean man for saying this, I must - I disagree with the following statement:

...I've come to understand that you pretty much have to grade by contact marks only on the Indian and eagle motifs themselves, as that is the only place where significant die pressure was available to remove pre-existing defects.

I believe it is a mistake to grade the coins in that fashion and to (pretty much) ignore flaws in the fields, which often do indeed negatively impact the grade.

[Oldtrader3]

The fields of incuse design coins tell you a great deal about whether the coin is mint state, counterfeit or has be doctored. I look very carefully at the fields for original toning, planchet condition, color and counterfeit diagnostics particularly in the star strike and shape. There is a great deal to be learned from the fields of incuse gold coins.

[RWB]

An additional tidbit: every gold blank was weighed individually before striking. Overweight blanks were filed or scraped with emery paper. Every gold coin was inspected and weighed individually after striking and before final counting.

[just-john]

this topic interest me since I have a 1929 2 1/2 Gold Indian that looks to me to be a MS65

on the low end. Would like to see or read what the differences between say ms23 -ms63-ms64 -ms65 and ms 66 would be or better yet what it would look like. The one I have all the dots on the head band -designs on the neck band -tassels on the hair and quills on all the feathers are to me perfect, All the feathers on the eagle breast and body and claws

stand out and look far better than any other ones that i have seen.This coin was in a bank deposit box since 1930

[Oldtrader3]

Color and quality of planchet (toning), completeness of strike (marks in strike) and bright luster-crescent prominance in headdress seem to be the criteria for higher grade coins. All MS64/65 coins have it, or should.

 

Scan is a 1929 quarter eagle that grades MS64 for comparison.

[James_OldeTowne]

Excellent observations!

 

Another impediment to good looking Indian gold coinage is the absence of a well defined rim. On most coins, the rim and edge collar work together to distribute metal into the design during the strike. But Indian $5 and $2.50 have no real rim so only the edge collar is left to do the work. This produced the pseudo-rim seen on many of these coins and contributes to poor design detail. Additionally, to avoid a fin on the coins, the mint deliberately upset the blanks too small. This resulted in coins with stars and lettering running off the field and poor edge reeding.

 

In researching these pieces for Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 I was struck (no pun intended) by the complete absence of testing prior to production and of the silence maintained by Charles Barber during the entire design and production phases. There is not one recorded “squawk” of objection from Barber, who, in other situations, was not hesitant to speak out. There is praise by Dir. Leach for the work, but that is all.

 

The $2.50 denomination was officially discontinued by Congress in 1930.

 

Roger, may I use these observations in an auction description I am writing?

 

[just-john]

Question on a incuse or incused Indian gold could you have a double die and if you did what would it look like .Would it be the entire side of the coin say the front or back or could you just get a double die where the date is. I'm thinking that the front with the Indian stayed

the same and they just changed the date . One of my 21/2 the date looks funky like a double die but have no idea what a dd would look like ??

[RWB]

A doubled die on a sunken relief coin, like the $5 and $2.50 Indians, would have exactly the same characteristics as a doubled die on any other design. It takes several blows from the working hub to create a working die. The exact number depends on the diameter and relief of the design. Portions the design would be doubled and shifted – depending on the way the working hub and working die shifted between the strikes necessary to compete a single working die.

 

(Note - $5 and $2.50 Indians are not “incuse” or intaglio designs. They are “sunken relief” where the design is in normal relief, but the top of the field is level with the top of the design instead of the base, as is normal.)

 

[James_OldeTowne]

(Note - $5 and $2.50 Indians are not “incuse” or intaglio designs. They are “sunken relief” where the design is in normal relief, but the top of the field is level with the top of the design instead of the base, as is normal.)

Roger, that's a terrific point, and I'm glad you brought it up. I use the term "incused" because everyone else does, but as you point out, that is not the correct term.

[RWB]

Well...have to admit I'm not using the strict terminology, either. Artists call it "sunk relief" - but that sounds so grating to the ear (and of other artists, too) that "sunken relief" is barely acceptable.