I need advice from my Friends - ANACS Coin that Did not Cross

[jgrinz]

I am one that can be a little explorsive at times and I would like the advice of my friends here on what I should do.

 

I purchased a coin from a "newbie" poster in the Marketplace (9) posts and seemed like a very nice guy. This was the coin I was attempting to crossover from ANACS to NGC. I was under the impression it did not pass muster as to grade.

 

The Original Post is here.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=14&Number=2645664&Searchpage=1&Main=136649&Words=1894-s&topic=0&Search=true#Post2645664

 

The coin came back as a no cross because of "CLEANING" at first I was upset and then cooled the jets and looked at the coin again - its a definte 63 a to technical grade as I thought but the toning under closer obsevation is the culprit. A Cleaned retoned coin and the toning looks strange. I have attempted to PM him here and EMAIL him directly with no response.

 

It was paid through PAYPAL ... Is this a situation where you would get them involved / Would they in fact do anything for me. I have actually had a pretty good record with them on recovering monies for problem sales/purchases.

 

Your input would be appreciated

[MarkFeld]

Unless you asked for and received some type of guarantee that the coin would cross, I don't even think it was appropriate to contact the seller. You bought it and you own it. If you don't want it, sell it.

[James_OldeTowne]

Unfortunately, I do not think PayPal will support a return. They are going to say that you purchased a coin in an ANACS slab, and that was what you received.

 

As to the issue itself, it may or may not have been cleaned, but certainly a coin that has been only lightly cleaned might still qualify as MS-63.

[supertooth]

Have got to agree with Mark 100% on this one. You bought the coin a month ago----got exactly what you bargained for----you own the coin IMHO

 

Many ANACS coins will crossover----but many will not. Hairlines are usually the problem. In any event, it is a coin that I would keep for a little while---maybe a year or so----then resell at your convenience on Ebay or wherever.

 

If the coin was good enough to fool you, that's probably why ANACS considered the coin to be "market acceptable". It was in a 6 digit old ANACS holder----you probably had a 50--50 chance of it crossing.

 

One last comment---and certainly not meant to be nasty. But a lot of folks would tell you that if you wanted the coin in an NGC or PCGS holder, you should have bought it that way in the first place. You took the gamble and lost this time. Bob [supertooth]

[michael]

i agree with mark feld 100% on this one

 

if it is the 94-s morgan dollar ms63 in the anx slab

 

it is impossible to tell from the photos but the coin looks really way overdipped in my opinion from the photo as it is flat dull and lifeless from the photo and usually the 94-s comes completely different in unc as it usually has great lustre and fire to it

 

this 94-s is the complete opposite in my opinion

 

again sight seen might be different

 

looks like a body bag to me

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Unfortunately, I do not think PayPal will support a return. They are going to say that you purchased a coin in an ANACS slab, and that was what you received.

 

As to the issue itself, it may or may not have been cleaned, but certainly a coin that has been only lightly cleaned might still qualify as MS-63.

James, why do you say "unfortunately"? That would be extremely unfair to the seller, under the circumstances as presented.

[James_OldeTowne]

Unfortunately, I do not think PayPal will support a return. They are going to say that you purchased a coin in an ANACS slab, and that was what you received.

 

As to the issue itself, it may or may not have been cleaned, but certainly a coin that has been only lightly cleaned might still qualify as MS-63.

James, why do you say "unfortunately"? That would be extremely unfair to the seller, under the circumstances as presented.

 

"Unfortunately" as it regards the OP's motives.

 

In Mike's place, I would simply keep the coin with no belief that it should be returnable.

[MarkFeld]

Unfortunately, I do not think PayPal will support a return. They are going to say that you purchased a coin in an ANACS slab, and that was what you received.

 

As to the issue itself, it may or may not have been cleaned, but certainly a coin that has been only lightly cleaned might still qualify as MS-63.

James, why do you say "unfortunately"? That would be extremely unfair to the seller, under the circumstances as presented.

 

"Unfortunately" as it regards the OP's motives.

 

In Mike's place, I would simply keep the coin with no belief that it should be returnable.

Thanks, James. I figured that was what you meant, but just wanted to be sure.

[jgrinz]

Unfortunately, I do not think PayPal will support a return. They are going to say that you purchased a coin in an ANACS slab, and that was what you received.

 

You are probably right there - as the Issue I did lose through PAYPAL was with two wheels for my Trans AM Albiet one was 7" wide and one was 8" wide. In thier opinion I got two wheels and lost the case.

 

Michael: The coins luster is diminished by the sellers picyures as the coin IS much better in hand than in the pictures. As I said the REtone I think is the tell tale on this one. Which I dismissed as being acceptable as it was alreday slabbed, I am not a Expert on the toning of Morgans, but I thought this coin had character.

 

Bob: There are not that many out there in my price range in a NGC/PCGS holder hence the attempt at a Cross ...

 

Mark: I expected that opinion from you and is most probably correct

 

Thanks Guys ...

 

m

 

 

 

[michael]

well then it could be bias on the part of crossing rhe coin/? or maybe it is a light cleaning?? i think so

 

but

 

i do not know for sure unless i can see the coin in hand sight seen but we do not have that luxury here with this coin

 

it is unfortunate this is why if i am buying coins i need to see it in hand sight seen before i make a pruchase also if i want a coin in a specigfic holder i tend not to play the crossing and crack out game as it is hnot for the faint of heart; i buy it in the holder i want it to be in to begin with and then only with my sight approval as even coins many coins in todays market in top two slabs are well not really eye appealling or properly graded in my opinion

 

or maybe i jusat want the killer eye appealing coin in the holder i need it to be in and also PQ for the grade

 

this is waht the cac is about and i can see the cac markets even expanding especially so in this current market

[TomB]

I don't believe you have a legitimate complaint regarding the seller.

[zrlevin]

I don't believe you have a legitimate complaint regarding the seller.

 

(thumbs u

[BankNote1]

Wrap the thing in cardboard throw it up in the attic for a year and re-sell it!

[Lost Dutchman]

I agree with the rest... you got what you paid for...

 

Did you crack the coin and send it in or did you leave it in the holder for the crossover??

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I agree with the rest... you got what you paid for...

 

Did you crack the coin and send it in or did you leave it in the holder for the crossover??

 

From the OP in his opening post to this thread:

The coin came back as a no cross because of "CLEANING

That at least implies that the coin was not cracked out of its holder.

[jgrinz]

Wrap the thing in cardboard throw it up in the attic for a year and re-sell it!

 

It will probably double in price - I can not let that happpen

 

There was the OTHER motivation of a Nice "S" mint coin added to my registry which will not happen now as the money got spent on this coin.

 

I have struck out twice in two weeks .. the 1883 Proof Indian that had the look of being a CAMEO redesignate had a big finger print on it which I didnt see initially until in hand ( Of Course Mark Saw it ) That got sent back ... he had a return policy.

 

Secret Squirrel has not said NO to a return as of yet either so who knows ...

I have returned money in the past where I sold a coin to a board member and it ended up being cleaned and I refunded the money immediately.

 

But thats me

[Lost Dutchman]

Thanks Mark... I should have read a little more carefully.

 

 

As for returning someone's money for a coin that has been cleaned... I personally will do that if the coin was sold raw or in a no name holder... but being in a top 3 or 4 holder I think that the grading company is more responsible then the seller. I know NGC has a review process for things like this. And i know that sometimes they buy back problem coins. I am not sure if ANACS does or not but it might be worth looking into.

[zrlevin]

Thanks Mark... I should have read a little more carefully.

 

 

As for returning someone's money for a coin that has been cleaned... I personally will do that if the coin was sold raw or in a no name holder... but being in a top 3 or 4 holder I think that the grading company is more responsible then the seller. I know NGC has a review process for things like this. And i know that sometimes they buy back problem coins. I am not sure if ANACS does or not but it might be worth looking into.

 

I think that this is an excellent point.

[BillJones]

I think that your experience is a prime example of why I still go to major coin shows to buy coins for my collection. I want to see an expensive item before I pay for it. That way I can decide if the item works for me or not. Pictures, especially for Mint State and Proof coins can't provide the kind of image you need to make a really informed decision.

 

The second point is that I've learned to buy the coin in the holder that I want it in the first place. I don't mess with crossovers because for the most part they are often a lot of grief for the "joe six-pack" type of collector. The guys and companies who submit a lot of coins might get some breaks. The small collector is up against it.

 

I'll disgree with one statement that was made here. Lightly cleaned and MS-63 do not go together. An MS-63 coin must have 99% + of its mint surface. The missing 1% - can be from a proper, light dip and that's it. If a physical cleaning has been applied to a coin, the chances are very romote that it can be an MS-63.

 

The finial point I'd add is that the old ANACS was as good as the big boys when it came to circulated coins. Both of the major companies and ANACS were less than perfect, but you could get nice circulated coins in ANACS olders. The Mint State and Proof coins were another matter. Rarely ANACS was very conservative, but from I've seen quite often they were too liberal in their grading for MS-63 and 64 coins.

[MarkFeld]

I think that your experience is a prime example of why I still go to major coin shows to buy coins for my collection. I want to see an expensive item before I pay for it. That way I can decide if the item works for me or not. Pictures, especially for Mint State and Proof coins can't provide the kind of image you need to make a really informed decision.

 

The second point is that I've learned to buy the coin in the holder that I want it in the first place. I don't mess with crossovers because for the most part they are often a lot of grief for the "joe six-pack" type of collector. The guys and companies who submit a lot of coins might get some breaks. The small collector is up against it.

 

I'll disgree with one statement that was made here. Lightly cleaned and MS-63 do not go together. An MS-63 coin must have 99% + of its mint surface. The missing 1% - can be from a proper, light dip and that's it. If a physical cleaning has been applied to a coin, the chances are very romote that it can be an MS-63.

Bill, he did see the coin in hand and approve of it before he submitted it for crossover. So, in this case, it didn't matter that he bought it through the mail as opposed to at a show.

 

I agree about buying the coin in the holder you want it to end up in - it is often, if not very frequently a waste of time, effort and money to mess with crossover attempts.

 

While you might feel that MS63 and lightly cleaned don't go together, the grading services net grade to MS63 (or other MS grades) lightly cleaned uncirculated coins which would grade higher, were it not for the cleaning. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the practice, but regardless, it's a reality.

[BillJones]

While you might feel that MS63 and lightly cleaned don't go together, the grading services net grade to MS63 (or other MS grades) lightly cleaned uncirculated coins which would grade higher, were it not for the cleaning. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the practice, but regardless, it's a reality.

 

To me Mint State means mint surface. If you screw around with the mint surface to the point were a lot of it is gone, and that can include dipping the coin too often or for too long or cleaning it with an abrastive, it does not grade mint state any more. But I understand what you are saying about "net" Mint State grades. You see those coins from time to time although not so much on Morgan dollars. Usually it's early dollars or some other early coins from first part of 19th century.

[ant]

one thing i do with jewelry over say 1k ill ask for half up front and send item to them for there last thoughts. i some times ask the same when buying coins. if im going to pay alot ill ask if i can pay half up front and rest on viewing. if they say no then it is my choice whether to go through with it.

[MunkyMan95]

one thing i do with jewelry over say 1k ill ask for half up front and send item to them for there last thoughts. i some times ask the same when buying coins. if im going to pay alot ill ask if i can pay half up front and rest on viewing. if they say no then it is my choice whether to go through with it.

 

Another option would be to ask to see coins on approval, if the seller is willing to go for it. I received a coin on approval recently, and both parties were happy when the transaction was said and done.

[jackson64]

another option----crack the coin out and resubmit it. I have at least 6/7 coins that were bodybagged for AT, cleaning etc..that crossed on the second try...and the % on crackouts slabbing versus in-slab crossovers is not even close....

 

crack it out, stick it in a Taco Bell napkin in the windowsill for 2 months and submit it for a 64 grade

[MarkFeld]

another option----crack the coin out and resubmit it. I have at least 6/7 coins that were bodybagged for AT, cleaning etc..that crossed on the second try...and the % on crackouts slabbing versus in-slab crossovers is not even close....

 

crack it out, stick it in a Taco Bell napkin in the windowsill for 2 months and submit it for a 64 grade

I wouldn't recommend that for a coin that 1) looks funky in the images that were posted and 2) NGC has already called cleaned.

[jgrinz]

another option----crack the coin out and resubmit it. I have at least 6/7 coins that were bodybagged for AT, cleaning etc..that crossed on the second try...and the % on crackouts slabbing versus in-slab crossovers is not even close....

 

crack it out, stick it in a Taco Bell napkin in the windowsill for 2 months and submit it for a 64 grade

I wouldn't recommend that for a coin that 1) looks funky in the images that were posted and 2) NGC has already called cleaned.

 

The image are the sellers I will post mine tonight as I said I would when it returned

 

[supertooth]

Mike------ I seem to be in total agreement with Mark today. Certainly, I consider that to be in good company.

 

While I agree with jackson 64 that your chances might have been better had the coin been cracked out, I definitely agree with Mark that your "risk" factor is greater----especially since NGC has already refused a crossover.

 

A 900 coin in an ANACS holder is basically still a 900 coin. But a 'raw" and cleaned out of the holder coin simply put is NOT a 900 coin anymore. More than likely out of the holder you would loose about 50% of its value.

 

Personally, I have probably 2 dozen fairly scarce Walkers in old ANACS holders. In many years, I have been more than willing to watch them grow in value in those old ANACS holders----many are 500--1500 dollar coins. But, if and when I ever sell them, they will likely still be in those ANACS holders. Greed can be a killer---I'm satisfied with a nice profit rather than trying to make a killing. Bob [supertooth]

[jgrinz]

Mike------ I seem to be in total agreement with Mark today. Certainly, I consider that to be in good company.

 

While I agree with jackson 64 that your chances might have been better had the coin been cracked out, I definitely agree with Mark that your "risk" factor is greater----especially since NGC has already refused a crossover.

 

A 900 coin in an ANACS holder is basically still a 900 coin. But a 'raw" and cleaned out of the holder coin simply put is NOT a 900 coin anymore. More than likely out of the holder you would loose about 50% of its value.

 

Personally, I have probably 2 dozen fairly scarce Walkers in old ANACS holders. In many years, I have been more than willing to watch them grow in value in those old ANACS holders----many are 500--1500 dollar coins. But, if and when I ever sell them, they will likely still be in those ANACS holders. Greed can be a killer---I'm satisfied with a nice profit rather than trying to make a killing. Bob [supertooth]

 

Here it is

 

[jackson64]

yes..I hadn't thought it through as to the potential loss should it not slab at all. The value is still $900 as is..if it were "raw" again it would be considerably less.....from the pics it may be worth a shot though...it is a much nicer coin than I had thought from the original pics...

 

by the way, what would your guess be for evidence of this cleaning? are there microscopic hairlines from a brush or do you think that it is the general overall colour?

[ant]

i like the looks myself. seems to have luster still if im seeing it right. i to would like to know why it didnt cross.