Mercury & Roosevelts "Weak struck coins give you more points"

[Paul Kiraly 3]

I am collecting roosevelts and will soon be entering into a mercury collection and I have been adding up the points and one thing I can't figure out is why a 67* is worth 200-400 points than a 67 full torch.A regular 67 is worth 50-400 points.Even if it is bright white or toned to make it a star it should not be worth more than a full torch.I go to coin shows and I find nice toned coins,but full torches are a different catagory.Even price makes all the difference.I can buy a ms67* for 40.00-240.00 dollars depending on the colors.Full torch roosevelts start at 150.00-1000.00 each.I will use an example ........1946-D ms67 320 points.....ms67ft 777 points....ms67* 1050 points..Then point value is retarded a 67*.I own a ms68*ft in this grade.This is just 1 example.70% of the coins in this catagory,a ms67* is worth more than a 67ft.I do not want to downgrade my set to get more points.This is how the registery should look in rareity for roosevelts .Ms67,ms67*,ms67ft,ms67*ft,and so on for each grade.I can pick another 4000.00 points easy by downgrading,but I dont want to.I believe the

1946-D point values shoud look like this: ms67 320 ....ms67*550......ms67ft 777 ms67*ft 2150.I want ngc to correct these scores.I want some feedback on this subject from other members.what is harder and more expensive to get stars or full torches and what is more expensive!!!

[physics-fan3.14]

The same is true for FBL Franklins. I don't get it.

[Glossy]

NGC's registry is all screwed up. They obviously don't see the importance of the service. Very frustrating.

[lehigh96]

I am collecting roosevelts and will soon be entering into a mercury collection and I have been adding up the points and one thing I can't figure out is why a 67* is worth 200-400 points than a 67 full torch.A regular 67 is worth 50-400 points.Even if it is bright white or toned to make it a star it should not be worth more than a full torch.I go to coin shows and I find nice toned coins,but full torches are a different catagory.Even price makes all the difference.I can buy a ms67* for 40.00-240.00 dollars depending on the colors.Full torch roosevelts start at 150.00-1000.00 each.I will use an example ........1946-D ms67 320 points.....ms67ft 777 points....ms67* 1050 points..Then point value is retarded a 67*.I own a ms68*ft in this grade.This is just 1 example.70% of the coins in this catagory,a ms67* is worth more than a 67ft.I do not want to downgrade my set to get more points.This is how the registery should look in rareity for roosevelts .Ms67,ms67*,ms67ft,ms67*ft,and so on for each grade.I can pick another 4000.00 points easy by downgrading,but I dont want to.I believe the

1946-D point values shoud look like this: ms67 320 ....ms67*550......ms67ft 777 ms67*ft 2150.I want ngc to correct these scores.I want some feedback on this subject from other members.what is harder and more expensive to get stars or full torches and what is more expensive!!!

 

I don't collect full torch Roosevelts, but based on the population reports, the values assigned look correct. It has to be harder to find a 1946-D MS67* than a FT. Here are the populations with the score rankings for the 1946-D Roosevelt Dime.

 

MS67-------------448-------------320 points

MS67*------------4----------------1050 points

MS67 FT---------62--------------777 points

MS67* FT-------6----------------2150 points

 

As far as cost, that is a different story. Most of the star designation coins have phenomenal toning (which you already know) and drive prices in the multiples of wholesale. So unless you are talking about a top pop FT coin, you should probably expect to pay more money for the star coin. This is not to say that there are not star coins that don't really deserve the star and would be available very cheaply. This comment was made in a general sense noting that there will be exceptions.

 

For example, a 1946-D NGC MS67 FT Roosevelt can expect to realize about $100 at auction. I purchased the following 1955-S MS66* Roosevelt for significantly more than $100. The coin gets me 63 points compared to the 487 points for the 1955-S FT Rosie which I will assume is a conditional rarity.

 

 

On a different note, I really don't see why you care. You have the second ranked set and will easily take first if you fill your remaining slots. You may consider filling your slot with an MS67* a downgrade because you are a strike conscious collector that likes the FT designation. However, if the numbers support that the star designation for a particular date is more rare than the FT designation, then you really should not have a problem that the star coin gets more points.

[Oldtrader3]

Paul cares about being number 1! This may be a new impulse that he actually is worried about quality and not the plastic.

[PCcoins]

I guess NGC is viewing eye appeal as better than having Full details on these coins.

[lehigh96]

The population reports don't lie. I would like to hear Paul's response to my post that based on current rarity data, the MS67 star deserves more points than the MS67 FT regardless of the collector's opinion about which makes the coin a higher quality coin. IMO, I could care less about strike and am all about eye appeal. The star designation allows me to compete. I have the tenth ranked war nickel set with 2 empty slots and I only have one FS coin out of ten. The stars are keeping me in the game. I have seen some of the FS collections and mine is just as nice as those, just in a different way.

[Revenant]

I think we're also falling into the trap of assuming the coin is weakly struck just because it doesn't have an FT designation. Lets remember that poorly struck coins are often disqualified from grades of 66 or 67. Any minor disruption (like a tiny nick) of any line (or a crabby grader) can disqualify an otherwise very well struck coin. I have a 1955S in MS67 and a 1955S in MS67FT. I honestly don't know what makes one better than the other (both are well struck and bright white non-toners) other than the fact that one cost $60 and one cost about $400. Personally I've thought about trying to get the Non-FT regraded (it's in an older slab and I suspect it might predate the designation).

[Paul Kiraly 3]

Well,let me say first of all I do not worry about #1.I still have plenty of upgrade time.My concern is that I can move up 4000 points by buying ms67* coins.Not all star coins have toneing.I have a few white star coins.Just because a pop 3 in ms67* and a pop 10 ms67ft doesnt make it rarer.You forgot to see how many are ms67.A ms67 and a ms67* is the same coin,it just states that it has better eye appeal,whiteness,or toning.Now Lehigh do the math om that total number.Alot of people can send a pure white coin to get a star designation.

[lehigh96]

Well,let me say first of all I do not worry about #1.I still have plenty of upgrade time.My concern is that I can move up 4000 points by buying ms67* coins.Not all star coins have toneing.I have a few white star coins.Just because a pop 3 in ms67* and a pop 10 ms67ft doesnt make it rarer.You forgot to see how many are ms67.A ms67 and a ms67* is the same coin,it just states that it has better eye appeal,whiteness,or toning.Now Lehigh do the math om that total number.Alot of people can send a pure white coin to get a star designation.

 

Paul,

 

Respectfully, you don't have much room to upgrade. Your set is phenomenal and you are neck and neck with Lablover but both of you are crushing the competition. If you really don't care about being #1 then why would you start this thread given that you are in an insurmountable second place.

 

I know that not all star coins have toning, but the blast white stars are a very small minority compared to the toned counterparts. I don't really understand your next point. If a population of 3 is not more rare than a population of 10, then I need help. Furthermore, I don't see what the total population of MS67's has do with anything. You seem to think that an MS67* and MS67 are the same thing. My retort is to say that an MS67 FT and an MS67 are the same coin. Your focus in collecting is strike related and I have no problem with that. The full strike FT Roosevelts drive a price premium to non FT coins and are rewarded as such in the registry. However, the star coins usually drive a premium due to exceptional eye appeal and are also rewarded accordingly.

 

In short the FT, FB, FS, FH, etc are coins for the strike conscious collectors and the star designation coins are for the eye appeal conscious collectors. I really don't see a difference and have no problem accepting the registry values assigned based on present rarity for each designation. If you don't agree that is fine, but take a look at my war nickel set compared to some of the ones ahead of it and let me know who you think has a better set. The plain white FS nickels or the rainbow stars in my set. I think it is great that different collectors with different preferences can compete on the same playing field.

 

Paul (Lehigh96)

[jackson64]

very well articulated Leigh

[Oldtrader3]

Paul (Lehigh96), you are describing a Rembrandt to a blind man. Paul (Crushing the Competition) Kiraly has lost the preeminent battle of the dimes and can't live up to his 2008 year's boast and it is eating up him inside! Paul (Crushing the Competition) is not number one in 2008! Welcome to the first step toward becoming a rounded human being, Paul (Crushing the Competition)! Better luck next year!

[Revenant]

Paul (Lehigh96), you are describing a Rembrandt to a blind man. Paul (Crushing the Competition) Kiraly has lost the preeminent battle of the dimes and can't live up to his 2008 year's boast and it is eating up him inside! Paul (Crushing the Competition) is not number one in 2008! Welcome to the first step toward becoming a rounded human being, Paul (Crushing the Competition)! Better luck next year!

 

Oh, darn. I guess it really is true. #2 really is just the first loser.

[pendragon1998]

The population reports don't lie.

 

 

You wouldn't say that if you collected Britannias.

[Schatzy]

Paul (Lehigh96), you are describing a Rembrandt to a blind man. Paul (Crushing the Competition) Kiraly has lost the preeminent battle of the dimes and can't live up to his 2008 year's boast and it is eating up him inside! Paul (Crushing the Competition) is not number one in 2008! Welcome to the first step toward becoming a rounded human being, Paul (Crushing the Competition)! Better luck next year!

[Coin]

Wow , it does get touchy in here over the registry.

 

Maybe NGC could just do seperate sets , I hate to say like CU ATS does , but , well like they do ATS.....make a set for FT only for condition folks.

 

I dunno , seems pretty simple to me , but it would not solve the total points for all sets overall issue would it?

 

I like strike condition . I absolutely thoroughly enjoy eye appeal coins when I see them , but , however, do not pursue them in the market place over strike condition .

I have both . My sets contain both . I think I've sold off any 'stars' that I get , as they seem to matter more to others than me . I might have a few 'star' coins that aren't in any registry set , and believe they are non-eye popping bright whiteys/reds.

Although , I'm not in hot pursuit in any one particular set for #1 spot ...outside of a 2000 proof set which only needs pics and better descripts to pop into a first position with the others in first spot....#1 on a coin set is just not that big a deal to me personnaly....there just isn't any more enjoyment to be gained by it . I thought that with the proof set it would be cool , but will leave it at its current spot sharing #2 or 3 or whatever it is now , been a while since I looked .

 

If you guys can drawl over a bunch of numbers , I can drawl about #1 or2 or whatever...sorry , you were serious .

I like the different approaches to the competition . This numbers game on the side . It's very interesting to follow YOUR competing , like watching a ball game , sort of .

Right now it looks like you guys are kickin dirt on the plate in front of the Umps , with a crowd in the stadium yelling out , along.

Slow game , but interesting...I'm going to get a beer an a hotdog or a pretzel or something while the Umpires are ruling.

Think the Phillies might have a chance?

[rainbowroosie]

I don't often comment on these boards (I forget my password all the time), but this string deserves a response. The FT designation on roosies and mercs has always been a crock. It is much much harder to find a real 68 roosie, let alone a beautifully toned 68, than to find a brilliant 67FT. There are a couple of dates where the strike can be good (55,58, some S mints) but not "FT" according to the holder...so what???...The FT coin can be a pig and it will get more points...I've traded out of numerous FT coins to replace it with stunning rainbow coins with real 67/68 surfaces but which may only be 90% FT...I challenge ANYONE out there to compare your set to mine side by side and then listen to how your set is better...It won't be...Let me give you a perfect example of how points don't matter except to point chasers -- recently I sent Onlyroosies a 46S which is now 67*FT PL (I don't even know how many points that might be) and I replaced the coin with a PCGS 67....sound dumb??? You should see the Wayte Raymond toned 67 non FT coin!!! Stupid looking color and flawless surfaces...so, which would you rather have???

[Paul Kiraly 3]

I would have a better struck coin,than color.That is like collecting franklin halves and saying my ms67* is better than your ms67 fulll bell line.90% of people want strike.I like toned coins,but better struck coins brings the money.

[walt666-migration]

I would have a better struck coin,than color.That is like collecting franklin halves and saying my ms67* is better than your ms67 fulll bell line.90% of people want strike.I like toned coins,but better struck coins brings the money.

 

I totally agree with Paul.

Walt

[Lablover]

It is much much harder to find a real 68 roosie, let alone a beautifully toned 68, than to find a brilliant 67FT.

 

Bill,

 

Right-On!!!

 

FT does not always mean "well struck".

 

Quoting DWLange: "Superior strike is a lesser component in grading..."

[lehigh96]

I would have a better struck coin,than color.That is like collecting franklin halves and saying my ms67* is better than your ms67 fulll bell line.90% of people want strike.I like toned coins,but better struck coins brings the money.

 

Paul,

 

We can go back and forth on this topic forever. I hold eye appeal supreme as you hold strike paramount. But to say that strike brings money over toning and that 90% of collectors want strike is IMO, not supported by fact. Take solace in the fact that there are collectors just like yourself who want strike all day, but be aware that there are also collectors that are toning freaks like myself. In fact, we have a Numismatic organization (TCCS), the Toned Coin Collectors' Society.

 

Regarding your Franklin Half example, please feel free to post a photo of an MS67 FBL and we shall see if 90% would rather have it over this coin.

 

 

BTW, The MS67*'s bring only slightly less money than the MS67 FBL (depending on date).

[Paul Kiraly 3]

You know leigh96 that is a nice coin.And lablover has toned coins as well.He dumper a lot of money to find star coins.NGC is the only grading service who reconizes eye appeal.I wont start jumping for a star,unles is is better struck and then star.Leigh96.now buy that some coin.Same mint mark and year.minus the star and have a full bell lines on the label,what is the price difference then?

[Lablover]

but take a look at my war nickel set compared to some of the ones ahead of it

 

Beautiful set of War Nickels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lehigh96]

You know leigh96 that is a nice coin.And lablover has toned coins as well.He dumper a lot of money to find star coins.NGC is the only grading service who reconizes eye appeal.I wont start jumping for a star,unles is is better struck and then star.Leigh96.now buy that some coin.Same mint mark and year.minus the star and have a full bell lines on the label,what is the price difference then?

 

Paul,

 

I will start by saying that it is not at all about the star designation which is applied very inconsistently by NGC IMO. Some collectors, myself included, just love toned coins. We see a toner and decide we must have that coin. When two collectors like the same toner, the result is a seemingly ridiculous premium to the rest of the numismatic community. To the toned coin collectors, it is all about eye appeal and luster. In your realm of collecting, it is all about strike and surface preservation. The fact that NGC has made it so that both types of collectors can survive and compete together is IMO, fantastic.

 

Now to answer your question. The average price of the last five 1958-D MS67 FBL Franklin Half Dollars (population 26/0) auctioned by Heritage since 4/2006 is $2,944. The average of price of the last three 1958-D * Franklin Half Dollars (population 4/0) auctioned by Heritage since 1/2006 is $1,533.

 

However, we must remember that price is a result of supply and demand. The population of the MS67* is much smaller than that of the MS67 FBL, yet the FBL fetches twice as much money. The answer is that the demand for the FBL coin must be much higher than the demand for the star coin. Simply because the number of strike conscious collectors outnumbers the toned coin collectors does not mean that the FBL coins are better than the star coins, just more popular. But you are equating more popular to 90%. The other problem is that not all star coins are created equal. You can have a few sell at $1,200 and the fourth could come along and fetch over $5,000. There really is no price guide for toned coins.

 

I hope I proved both of our points at the same time. Like I said before, we can coexist and compete together with vastly different interests, VERY COOL!

[onlyroosies]

We can coexist and compete together with vastly different interests, VERY COOL!

 

 

Lehigh96, That one sentence of yours says it all. I agree with you and I agree with Paul. For me, I would chose your 67* over any white or unattractive 67FBL. But, if I had a choice between your coin and an equally attractive 67FBL I would chose the 67FBL...Of course if it was equally attractive it would be a 67*FBL...