The use of the NGC Star designation needs to be reevaluated

[kryptonitecomics]

I am a toned coin collector period.....I could give two hoots about registry points but if NGC is going to go through the trouble of having a desigation for superior eye appeal then they need some consistency in handing them out or a complete overhaul of the process

 

Let me put it to you another way....as far as most common coin values go....PCGS coins tend to trade for higher levels because of the perception by many in the hobby that a PCGS graded coin in say MS65 is nicer than and NGC graded coin in MS65. I am not saying I agree with them.....but a lot of coins I see on Heritage, Ebay etc that are the same date and grades sell for more in PCGS holders. Now along comes a collector like me....I prefer the PCGS holders because it makes it much easier to image coins but since I collect toned coins, the white NGC insert can be a plus when contrasting with a beautifully toned coin.

 

Throw in the fact that the star designation can and usually does mean a bump in values and or sales prices and it's a nice even swap for me going with NGC. Now we arrive at the crux of the problem......one we are all too familiar with....

 

The graders that are deciding what is and is not star worthy have 0 consistency. Please don't think I have overlooked that beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I haven't and I know that grading and designation assignments are subjective. I am just at my wits end when it comes to sending in stunning coins and they come back without the designation......something needs to be done about this.....collectors shouldn't have to keep sending coins back in for designation reviews when the coins should have been designated correctly in the first place.

 

Yet again I sent off a big batch of toners that included my coins and some amazing coins from a fellow board member and some of the very best coins we had were not given the star. Is this a bit of sour grapes.....of course but all I do is collect toners and I know a knockout when I see one and I am sorry if I like to see my coins recognized for the magnificent piece that they are........others send in their undergraded coins to get the correct grade....I feel the same about the star.

 

Will I keep them without the designation yes......will I still enjoy them...yes........does it hurt the value of the coins if I ever decide to sell them without the designation....yes I know that Skyman started a similar thread a while back and there were mixed opinions as to whether his coins should or should not have received the star......a few of those coins were sold to him by me and I know at least one of the coins I sold him was later designated a star after review. The coins that I am talking about are just nice for a particular date or MM...these are amazing examples for the series....you know...Locks!!!!

 

Some of the grades that came back were also head scratchers but for the most part I thought NGC regained some of their consistency since my last submission where they were handing out MS64's on super nice coins like there was an MS64 sale.

 

Here are a few of the coins that did not get stars.....in hand these are glow in the dark with amazing luster and superior color.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a lot of other beautiful toners in the submission but I didn't think they were locks....just pretty coins that may or may not make the designation....needless to say not one got the designation and these should have been 50/50 chance coins in some cases...not 0 chance coins in all cases.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh and and here is a coin fresh out of mint set packaging with nearly flawless surfaces and NGC gave it an MS64 FBL......please tell me where the marks are on this coin that is keeping it under and MS66???

 

[coinman1794]

Some of us call it "the grading game" for a reason.

 

Lately, they push coins through so quickly that there's no chance of consistency, especially with something so subjective. Some graders actually apply the standard for Star coins differently, according to Scott Schechter on my recent call to him about Star coins. You'd think they'd wanna sinc that up...

[PCcoins]

I have to agree with you 100% Shane NGC has tightened up on the grading, and obviously with the "Star" designation. I think ngc needs to better explain what exceptional eye appeal is, and what limits the star designation on beautiful toners like these?

[physics-fan3.14]

Hoo boy, wow, those are some stunners. How a few of those didn't get stars is beyond me! BTW, what sort of grades did you get on those? I wish I had some money right now, I would buy any of those in a heartbeat, especially that first Frankie.

[kryptonitecomics]

I am not sure till I get them back....I sent in up to 9 coins of a specific date amd MM and Denomination so I can't match up the grades till I have them in hand.

[MarkFeld]

Shane, if you really feel that way, save your money, stop beating your head against the wall and stop submitting coins for the star designation. If some of them are as eye-appealing as you seem to think, they shouldn't need the star designation to sell for the money they deserve, anyway. Really!

 

You are allowing yourself to be a slave to grading. It is your choice. And by the way, I realize that it's easier said than done, but I generally practice what I preach in that regard. For example, I hardly ever use crossover services for my own coins because, among other reasons, I don't think the coins are evaluated as objectively as they should be.

[kryptonitecomics]

I hear what your saying Mark....I just want consistency and I know that's a pipe dream.......

 

I used to know what NGC was looking for as far as toners worthy of the star......somewhere along the way things have changed and I don't think they even know what they want anymore

[Glossy]

Shane, if you really feel that way, save your money, stop beating your head against the wall and stop submitting coins for the star designation. If some of them are as eye-appealing as you seem to think, they shouldn't need the star designation to sell for the money they deserve, anyway. Really!

 

You are allowing yourself to be a slave to grading. It is your choice. And by the way, I realize that it's easier said than done, but I generally practice what I preach in that regard. For example, I hardly ever use crossover services for my own coins because, among other reasons, I don't think the coins are evaluated as objectively as they should be.

 

Very correct. Not having a star on the holder would in no way keep me from purchacing a beautiful toned coin like the ones you have. Very Nice!!

[cpm9ball]

Okay, here is a chance for anybody and everybody to jump on me!

 

While I think that all of these are very pretty and I would love to own them, I don't think any of them have exceptional eye appeal. It is my understanding that the graders must be in complete agreement for the "Star" designation to be awarded. I guess you can thank your lucky "Stars" that I don't work for NGC.

 

Chris

[lehigh96]

I hear what your saying Mark....I just want consistency and I know that's a pipe dream.......

 

I used to know what NGC was looking for as far as toners worthy of the star......somewhere along the way things have changed and I don't think they even know what they want anymore

 

Shane,

 

I feel you pain completely and have voiced my opinion on this issue many times on many forums. I remember at one point thinking they just flip a coin to decide. I started a thread on the Cointalk forum last month about this topic. Check it out and tell me what you think.

 

NGC Star Designation (Inconsistent or misunderstood)

 

BTW, I own every coin photographed in that thread.

[gpnyc]

Okay, here is a chance for anybody and everybody to jump on me!

 

While I think that all of these are very pretty and I would love to own them, I don't think any of them have exceptional eye appeal. It is my understanding that the graders must be in complete agreement for the "Star" designation to be awarded. I guess you can thank your lucky "Stars" that I don't work for NGC.

 

Chris

 

I'm glad you said it first. In my opinion, many of these coins have superior lighting and photography but not so much going for them in terms of superior eye appeal. Don't get me wrong, I like 'em, but I don't like 'em as stars.

 

Also, stars are not all about toning as some might be led to believe. 4 of my star designated coins have no toning whatsoever.

 

The only misuse of the star that I've personally seen is on the Battle Creek coins. Every other start designated coin I've seen in hand has deserved it 100%. That's likely the result of NGC's policy of unanimous agreement by the graders on all stars.

[prudden]

I'd like to know how many of you all sent coins in for designation review and got a star.

[66rb]

I hear ya Shane, I've been similarly frustrated in the past with trying to get a few star designations. It really makes one scratch ones head to try and figure out just what it is they are looking at when they decide a coin is getting the * on the label

 

 

1934 NGC 66BN(now PCGS 66BN )

 

1943 NGC MS67(Steel Cent. Toned. Pastel Colors. Hello?)

 

So, the 1934 and the 1943 failed to get the star designation, but the following coin did get it? This 1950-D is nothing special at all.

 

 

 

I've got a few other ones as well, the 1952-D 66RB and the 1958-D 66RB in my set both failed, as well as a 1911 NGC 65RB and a 1918-S NGC 65RB that have both been sold.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I hear ya Shane, I've been similarly frustrated in the past with trying to get a few star designations. It really makes one scratch ones head to try and figure out just what it is they are looking at when they decide a coin is getting the * on the label

 

I wouldn't have thought any of the 3 Lincoln cents above would receive stars. Perhaps the last one is semi-prooflike/extra flashy and received one for that reason.

[gpnyc]

I'd like to know how many of you all sent coins in for designation review and got a star.

 

This one got a star on designation review. That's about it for me.

 

[MarkFeld]

I'd like to know how many of you all sent coins in for designation review and got a star.

 

This one got a star on designation review. That's about it for me.

 

If those images are accurate, I never would have contemplated that coin getting a star. I mean no disrespect to the coin, itself. I just don't see it as eye-appealing enough to warrant the designation.

[66rb]

Mark, perhaps seeing them in-hand would change your opinion. The color on the steel cent is somewhat more obvious in hand. They were photo'd by Mark Goodman and he tends to not 'juice' the photos up, but I'm sure either one could be 'juiced up' to be a raging neon toned monster

 

And again, the 1950-D is nothing special. Why did it recieve a star designation?

 

Now there are four 50-D's graded 66*RD. Here's another one:

 

 

Does that one appear to deserve the designation? I sure don't think so.

 

Interesting that these two 1950-D's were on the same submission

[MarkFeld]

Does that one appear to deserve the designation? I sure don't think so

I don't either, based on the images.

 

All of these star designation discussions and debates serve to further illustrate how subjective the designation is. AND why people shouldn't worry so much about it.

[Jeffrey Cardona]

I pulled this quote from the NGC website where they explain about their Star Designation:

 

"One important thing to remember is that NGC defines its star designated coins as those that have exceptional eye appeal."

 

Exceptional eye appeal to me is very much open to interpretation and very subjective. Is there a set standard for what is appealing to the eye when looking at a coin? What appeals to one may not appeal to another. Using me as an example...I don't collect toned coins, so when I see a toned coin it does nothing for me.

 

Use another example of "runway models" in fashion shows. Some think they are hot but I think they anorexic and ugly.

 

Is it another example of collecting/buying/or wanting what the plastic says instead of the coin?

 

[MikeInFL]

Shane, If we all agree that eye appeal is subjective, why, precisely, does NGC's opinion matter? At least to me, it's about the coin, not how much I can sell it for, not how many registry points it is worth, and not the grade on the holder. While nobody likes to be told their coins aren't as nice as they think they are, I'm just wondering why it bothers you so much -- it's just a difference in opinion on something that's extremely subjective to begin with...Mike

[MarkFeld]

Shane, If we all agree that eye appeal is subjective, why, precisely, does NGC's opinion matter? At least to me, it's about the coin, not how much I can sell it for, not how many registry points it is worth, and not the grade on the holder. While nobody likes to be told their coins aren't as nice as they think they are, I'm just wondering why it bothers you so much -- it's just a difference in opinion on something that's extremely subjective to begin with...Mike

Mike, I can answer that for you - Shane wants consistency in the subjectivity of the star designation. But on a practical basis, I think that might equate with inconsistency, and that he doesn't realize it.

 

Shane, I sincerely hope you won't let this stuff continue to bother you and that you'll get back to enjoying the COINS, as I have seen you do, so well and so much before.

[dean1345]

I totally agree with Mike. Shane if your coins are knock down gorgeous it will not matter to the buyer if it is a "Star" or not. Your reputation as a knowledgable "toned" dealer will supercede any star or CAC sticker on a slab.

 

Dean

[MarkFeld]

... Your reputation as a knowledgable "toned" dealer will supercede any star or CAC sticker on a slab.

 

I would change that to "The coins, themselves, will supersede any star or CAC sticker on a slab".

[dean1345]

I was directing the question to Shane and not Mark.

 

Dean

[TJ'S Coins]

Mark has covered the field well with his observations

 

Shane, these are beautiful coins that you have acquired. They would be a great addition to most collectors. From what I have seen of the star designation in use I can see why they did not receive the coveted prize designation. The color may be a little splotchy in some cases, not as defined in others. It is very difficult to judge luster from photographs. They are great coins. Are they exceptional? That is the question

[MarkFeld]

I was directing the question to Shane and not Mark.

 

Dean

Did you do so via private message? I ask, because I don't see where you asked a question in this thread.

[cpm9ball]

Shane, If we all agree that eye appeal is subjective, why, precisely, does NGC's opinion matter? At least to me, it's about the coin, not how much I can sell it for, not how many registry points it is worth, and not the grade on the holder. While nobody likes to be told their coins aren't as nice as they think they are, I'm just wondering why it bothers you so much -- it's just a difference in opinion on something that's extremely subjective to begin with...Mike

 

(thumbs u

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

Shane, If we all agree that eye appeal is subjective, why, precisely, does NGC's opinion matter? At least to me, it's about the coin, not how much I can sell it for, not how many registry points it is worth, and not the grade on the holder. While nobody likes to be told their coins aren't as nice as they think they are, I'm just wondering why it bothers you so much -- it's just a difference in opinion on something that's extremely subjective to begin with...Mike

 

I can't answer that.......but I know it bugs the blank out of me.....probably becuase I see so many ho hum coins with the star and it's so tough for me to run across real knockouts raw........I don't want to shell out the multiples for star designated coins with the great eye appeal....I would just like to be able to make some myself via submissions. Have I been able to...yes.......do I feel like I haven't gotten hosed on many more that should have......yes I do

 

 

[lehigh96]

Shane,

 

While I think that the majority of the comments posted on this thread by other members are accurate, I don't think they are any consolation. I am sure that you understand the subjectivity of the star designation and do not need NGC's opinion to validate your assessment of each individual coin. It appears to me that your frustration lies with the fact that NGC has seemingly changed their criteria for the star designation. I would guess that means that you believe that most of these coins would have starred in the past whereas now they are being passed over.

 

Whenever I don't understand the decision of the TPG, I always look harder to find a reason for their decision. With regards to the star designation, I can only make two relevant observations. First, the star designation is not just about rainbow toning no matter how vibrant or attractive. In my experience, the toning must be outstanding and in combination with blazing luster. Additionally, the toning must be uniform without streaks or splotchiness. I believe that this would explain why the majority of your coins did not receive the star. The second factor is rarity. NGC seems to be much harder on issues that typically have great eye appeal. You are submitting coins from 1957 & 1958 mint sets which are famous for producing spectacularly toned coins. Because of this, I believe NGC has raised the criteria for these coins to obtain the star status. If these coins were from a different year, I have no doubt that more of them would have gotten a star.

 

Having said all that, I find no earthly reason why that first 1958-D Franklin Half did not get a star. That is one of the most attractive Franklin Halves I have ever seen, star or no star, and is worthy of a huge premium.

 

Paul.

 

BTW, Did you get a chance to read my cointalk thread? NGC Star Designation (Inconsistent or Misunderstood)

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Shane, If we all agree that eye appeal is subjective, why, precisely, does NGC's opinion matter? At least to me, it's about the coin, not how much I can sell it for, not how many registry points it is worth, and not the grade on the holder. While nobody likes to be told their coins aren't as nice as they think they are, I'm just wondering why it bothers you so much -- it's just a difference in opinion on something that's extremely subjective to begin with...Mike

 

I can't answer that.......but I know it bugs the blank out of me.....probably becuase I see so many ho hum coins with the star and it's so tough for me to run across real knockouts raw........I don't want to shell out the multiples for star designated coins with the great eye appeal....I would just like to be able to make some myself via submissions. Have I been able to...yes.......do I feel like I haven't gotten hosed on many more that should have......yes I do

 

 

Shane, I agree that if you had to go into the general marketplace and buy the "Star" coins, it would cost quite a bit more. Your comment about seeing so many "ho-hum" coins with the designation makes me wonder when those particualr coins were graded. Since, as you have already stated, these coins are selling for considerably more now, don't you think that NGC would naturally make it harder to earn this coveted award? After all, if it were easy to obtain, I would think that values would drop.

 

Chris