My Hesitancy On Buying Rainbow toned coins ...

[jgrinz]

I saw this coin across the street (LeeG) and a coin with this coins tone is exactly why I do not buy rainbows for my collection. Still in my heart and mind I do not think that all these RAINBOWS you see after 50-150 years old is natural. This coin after 72 years is what I would EXPECT silver to turn to. Just look in gramma's cabinet with her silver - do you see vibrant colors glowing out of the cabinet - NO -I expect to see tarnish, I expect to see somewhat colored brownish pieces of silver, I also expect to be reamed here about my point of view - but thats okay. Just making a point on why I dont by toners in general unless I feel it is a look that absolutely "again in my mind' is a possible occurance.

 

[MarkFeld]

I'd give huge odds that the color on that coin is natural.

 

Coins often tone differently than "gramma's silver" because of their composition AND the fact that they are usually exposed to different elements than the silver is. For instance, how often do you see "gramma's silver" stored in a coin album or envelope which contains sulfur? Or in a tab holder like many silver commemoratives were distributed in?

[TomB]

I just have two points to make on your post. The first is that Lee's half likely spent significant time in the cardboard that it was issued in and this is the most likely source of the color on this coin. The second is that silverware is generally not of the same silver finess as silver coinage, which can cause it to turn darker colors than silver coinage, and that silverware is typically polished repeatedly, which also typically produces strongly dark brown, blue and black colors.

[jgrinz]

I'd give huge odds that the color on that coin is natural.

 

I do too .. even though PCGS certified it

[jesbroken]

 

I saw this coin across the street (LeeG) and a coin with this coins tone is exactly why I do not buy rainbows for my collection..... This coin after 72 years is what I would EXPECT silver to turn to.

 

I think that Mike meant this coin was Natural vs the vibrant rainbow colors he is seeing that he feels are not. JMO.

Jim

[jgrinz]

I just have two points to make on your post. The first is that Lee's half likely spent significant time in the cardboard that it was issued in and this is the most likely source of the color on this coin. The second is that silverware is generally not of the same silver finess as silver coinage, which can cause it to turn darker colors than silver coinage, and that silverware is typically polished repeatedly, which also typically produces strongly dark brown, blue and black colors.

 

Those however are good points ...

[jgrinz]

I saw this coin across the street (LeeG) and a coin with this coins tone is exactly why I do not buy rainbows for my collection..... This coin after 72 years is what I would EXPECT silver to turn to.

 

I think that Mike meant this coin was Natural vs the vibrant rainbow colors he is seeing that he feels are not. JMO.

Jim

 

Correctamondo

[Just Bob]

I guess it depends on what your definition of "natural" is. If a coin is placed in the cabinet next to Grandma's silver, and given the same treatment over the years, I suppose that it might tarnish the same as the silver does. But, as others have pointed out, coins are exposed to cardboard and paper holders, mint bags, etc., which contain chemicals that impart a different kind of "tarnish" (toning). Is this "natural?" The market seems to think so.

[Treeman]

I tend to agree with jgrinz on the whole "Rainbow" fad. Like I have stated before, virtually all Morgan dollars were "Blast White" years ago. Obviously, most were dipped to bring them to the, then desired, white appearence. Toned Morgans were just about nonexistant. These days, "color" coins are everywhere. Yes, many are the result on storage in albums, but they were dipped at some point before being put into the album. Cleaned (dipped) coins always take on color when stored in the old albums (or a Taco Bell napkin). Just try placing an original (or something that hasn't been dipped in the last few years) white coin in an old album. At the same time, put a recently dipped coin in the same album. The newly dipped coin will get the blues, and other colors, years before the "original" coin shows results. Personally, I don't have much faith in any of these "Rainbow" Morgans being strictly original. Then again, I really don't like "Red" Large Cents either. Most are rather unattractive when compared to a nice "Brown" coin.

By the way, these are just my opinions, and I believe they will be accepted as such here. ATS, I would be tarred and feathered for my remarks

[physics-fan3.14]

Certainly, everyone is entitled to their opinion of whether they like rainbows or not. Heck, this is still a free country. But I have absolutely no problem whatsoever believing that a coin that was in a mint bag for a hundred years could come out looking like Shanes recent purchase. I have no problem whatsoever believing a coin that spent 50 years in a cardboard holder could come out looking like a couple of my recent purchases. Its a simple matter of the silver in the coins reacting with chemicals in the air to produce silver sulfide or other substances on teh surface of the coin. Depending on the thickness of the film, different colors are produced. This is called thin film interference - its the same phenomenon that causes the rainbow effect on an oil slick. Now, as mentioned before, different purities of silver will react differently, and so will different environments. With a larger amount of ambient sulfur, humidity, or temperature, the coins will tend to tone faster.

 

By the way, feel free to send me all your ugly rainbow toned coins. I'll take them any day of the week.

[WoodenJefferson]

I’m not a silver smith nor am I a coiner, but there is something inherent about the manufacturing process of these silver items that does make them different even though they are made from the same basic metals.

 

Let’s take a ordinary silver spoon with the spoon part 1/10 of an inch thick and a coin blank also 1/10 of an inch thick. Both are going to be stamped by a hydraulic press in order to shape the features. In both cases opposing dies will be used, the spoon dies for the curvature cupping of the spoon and of course the dies to stamp the letters and devices into the coin.

 

The tonnage to mold the spoon is in the neighborhood of 25 tons, while the tonnage to mold the coin is upwards to a 125 tons or 5X as much pressure to be applied. The silver spoon undergoes a malleable transformation when stamped while the coin goes through not only a malleable transformation, but for a brief nanno second, surface metals of the silver coin actually begin to flow.

 

In this process, the spoon will still basically maintain it’s original outer skin, but the flowing metal of the coin under those extreme pressures will act differently after it instantly solidifies. The spoon is then polished even further by the Smithy in order to give it that appealing shine and by doing so, he exposes even more of the softer core metal. Polishing does re-work the surface to an extent, but the properties are no where near those of the coin. The silver coin is left alone and released into circulation with it’s almost impervious outer covering intact, ready to face certain destruction, its intended purpose.

 

Time and the elements are this metals enemy and in the end both will tarnish, but the lesser worked silver spoon will tarnish faster, darker and with less color than the work hardened coin.

 

I am not an advocate of highly toned coins nor am I collector of color, some are very appealing in nature and some are not…to each his own, there is room for everybody.

 

I am Woody and I approve of this post.

 

[realone]

I just wanted at my to the silver spoon, btw excellent info on silver spoon manufacture vs coin minting. Silver spoons are then typically put on wooden surfaces or black/purple velvet for use/storage. That will factor into its toning. Then the silver spoons are used, our saliva is added, food is added and then it is degreased or washed and rinsed over and over again. The spoon is literally worn down in an extremely fast action over its life. It never sits and sits untouched after the vigorous manufacturing process and if it does it is stored very differently and typically used occasionally over time. And if the spoon is ti be used and it is toned it is then cleaned with harsh chemicals and made white again and the process starts over. This process doesn't happen with coins unless the holder of the coin soldered a stem to the coin, bent the coin and turned it into a spoon. Now I have such pieces that are 100's of years old and guess what, they look just like a spoon when they tone and not like a coin in any way shape or form.

[leeg]

I'm with those in the group that believe the Norfolk to be an original 100% Tab Toned example. Here are some larger images of the coin to get a feel for the color and tab toning:

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a link to information about Tab Toning and the holders by Liberty Numismatics:

 

Tab Toning Article

[BankNote1]

I hate nice original toned coins myself! I am thinking of throwing this Buffalo in the trash can! Yeah right!

 

I must disagree with the Treeman. I have found that dipped coins can turn a funky color after they have been dipped. Its the un-messed with coins with original surfaces that give you the beautiful blue toning around the coin. The color comes from the coin being kept in one of the old albums with a high sulfur content paper.

 

I wish more collectors disliked colorful coins. If they did I wouldn't go broke everytime I bought one!

[PCcoins]

I find that tabbed toned comm. to be quite attractive.

 

Personally, I have some old silverware and a silver platter that have toned over time as I haven't cleaned them. The toning is very similar to toning you find on silver coins, light pastel rainbow toning. It's pretty cool!

[MarkFeld]

I hate nice original toned coins myself! I am thinking of throwing this Buffalo in the trash can! Yeah right!

 

I must disagree with the Treeman. I have found that dipped coins can turn a funky color after they have been dipped. Its the un-messed with coins with original surfaces that give you the beautiful blue toning around the coin. The color comes from the coin being kept in one of the old albums with a high sulfur content paper.

 

I wish more collectors disliked colorful coins. If they did I wouldn't go broke everytime I bought one!

Many dipped coins re-tone in attractive hues afterwards - they don't all turn to a funky color. And there are probably many gorgeously toned, previously dipped coins floating around, which we don't even realize have been dipped.

[jom]

I hate nice original toned coins myself! I am thinking of throwing this Buffalo in the trash can! Yeah right!

 

I must disagree with the Treeman. I have found that dipped coins can turn a funky color after they have been dipped. Its the un-messed with coins with original surfaces that give you the beautiful blue toning around the coin. The color comes from the coin being kept in one of the old albums with a high sulfur content paper.

 

I wish more collectors disliked colorful coins. If they did I wouldn't go broke everytime I bought one!

 

Awful. Just awful. If you want a tax break for a donation send that coin to me and I'll write you up a receipt.

 

jom

[MikeInFL]

I don't agree with much of your post, but...

 

Just making a point on why I dont by toners in general unless I feel it is a look that absolutely "again in my mind' is a possible occurance.

 

...I don't think anyone can disagree with that. In the end, each of us should only buy things that we are comfortable with. Buy what YOU like....Mike

[kryptonitecomics]

I completely agree with you and I feel anyone spending big money on this fad should liquidate their toned coin holdings and I just may know someone who would be will to purchase said coins

[michael]

commem half is an original tab toned coin but it is no way rainbow or close to it

[michael]

1918 buff was dipped blast white and then put into an album with sulfur pages and has more quickly retoned in the album due to the surfaces being dipped blast white

 

so it is a secondary toned coin from an album

[lehigh96]

I’m not a silver smith nor am I a coiner, but there is something inherent about the manufacturing process of these silver items that does make them different even though they are made from the same basic metals.

 

Let’s take a ordinary silver spoon with the spoon part 1/10 of an inch thick and a coin blank also 1/10 of an inch thick. Both are going to be stamped by a hydraulic press in order to shape the features. In both cases opposing dies will be used, the spoon dies for the curvature cupping of the spoon and of course the dies to stamp the letters and devices into the coin.

 

The tonnage to mold the spoon is in the neighborhood of 25 tons, while the tonnage to mold the coin is upwards to a 125 tons or 5X as much pressure to be applied. The silver spoon undergoes a malleable transformation when stamped while the coin goes through not only a malleable transformation, but for a brief nanno second, surface metals of the silver coin actually begin to flow.

 

In this process, the spoon will still basically maintain it’s original outer skin, but the flowing metal of the coin under those extreme pressures will act differently after it instantly solidifies. The spoon is then polished even further by the Smithy in order to give it that appealing shine and by doing so, he exposes even more of the softer core metal. Polishing does re-work the surface to an extent, but the properties are no where near those of the coin. The silver coin is left alone and released into circulation with it’s almost impervious outer covering intact, ready to face certain destruction, its intended purpose.

 

Time and the elements are this metals enemy and in the end both will tarnish, but the lesser worked silver spoon will tarnish faster, darker and with less color than the work hardened coin.

 

I am not an advocate of highly toned coins nor am I collector of color, some are very appealing in nature and some are not…to each his own, there is room for everybody.

 

I am Woody and I approve of this post.

 

It has been a long time since my metallurgy classes in college, but I am pretty sure that work hardening does not have any effect on surface oxidation. It increases yield strength and decreases ductility, but it doesn't change the composition. However, now that I re-read your post, I don't know whether or not you meant to say that it affected the oxidation reaction or whether your were simply stating that coining is a form of work hardening. BTW, does anyone know the crystal lattice structure of silver?

 

Now back on topic. I hear other collectors refer to rainbow toned coins as a fad, but I never see the coins I collect drop in price and I don't know why. It seems to me that the base of collectors that seek out attractively toned coins are not going to suddenly change their minds and decide that they want to collect blast white coins. Furthermore, I believe that it is the toning lovers (myself included) that create the huge premiums for which these coins sell, not novice collectors that are being suckered by a fad created by coin marketing. OMG, I think I just answered my own question, that must be why the prices don't drop.

 

 

[Treeman]

 

 

"I must disagree with the Treeman. I have found that dipped coins can turn a funky color after they have been dipped. Its the un-messed with coins with original surfaces that give you the beautiful blue toning around the coin. The color comes from the coin being kept in one of the old albums with a high sulfur content paper".

 

That is one very nice Buffalo! What I'm saying is that "original" (cleaned long ago, or possibly never cleaned) white coins are not very reactive. Though white, they do have a layer of oxidation, which slows further reaction. Once dipped, the surface of the coin will react relatively quickly to whatever is present in it's environment. I can only speak of my personal "experiments", and my results were ALWAYS the same. Dipped silver coins produce the vigrant colors, whereas the "original" white coins showed very little change, perhaps a bit of brown tarnish. I still believe that most of the "Toner" Morgans were once the "Blast White" Gems of the past. Then again, I could be, and often am, wrong.

[MikeInFL]

Now back on topic. I hear other collectors refer to rainbow toned coins as a fad, but I never see the coins I collect drop in price and I don't know why.

 

I think I may have an idea.... How long have you been collecting toned coins?

[lehigh96]

Now back on topic. I hear other collectors refer to rainbow toned coins as a fad, but I never see the coins I collect drop in price and I don't know why.

 

I think I may have an idea.... How long have you been collecting toned coins?

 

Almost 10 years.

[Glossy]

Oh would I love if it were just a fad. People would stop buying them and the prices would crash. What a day for me it would be.

 

Some people like them, some hate them. I love the colors, the originality of toned coins. The monster top pop b/w or golds can't be beat. But to find a beautifully toned coin can be just as exciting, and many times much less expensive.

 

[MikeInFL]

Now back on topic. I hear other collectors refer to rainbow toned coins as a fad, but I never see the coins I collect drop in price and I don't know why.

 

I think I may have an idea.... How long have you been collecting toned coins?

 

Almost 10 years.

 

And therein lies your answer. You (like me!) started collecting toned coins during the longest bull market in recent history....Mike