PCGS and cleaned coins

[RI AL]

A few days ago I stumbled on a thread discussing whether PCGS will slab a coin that has been cleaned. (I don't remember which thread) but I believe that the answer by most was yes, but I would like to confirm that with a picture. PCGS graded this 1803 dollar as VF 35 and the surfaces are certainly not original. Whoever "did the deed" of cleaning the coin, I guess PCGS thought that it met their requirements. Believe me, I was thrilled to get it for the $800 I bid a few years back.

 

Not that it is really important, and I know that the picture isn't great, but because of several of you guys who helped me to learn how to take pictures rather than use scans, I think I am getting better at it. So ...THANKS!

 

RI AL

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

PCGS has slabbed many, many hundreds of thousands of cleaned coins, as has NGC (excluding NCS). There is no question whatsoever that TPGs MUST be able to do this, as there is such a vast population of cleaned coins in existence. The issue is to what degree the coin has been cleaned. Is it just a light dip? then it can be slabbed. A thorough scrubbing? bodybag!

 

(Yes, I'm sorry, but I do consider dipping "cleaning", and I know that statement will lead to another endless argument. But let's face it, attempting to diminish a coin's "dirty" appearance by any manner is "cleaning".)

 

Edited to add: the subject coin definitely appears to have been cleaned.

[physics-fan3.14]

Yes, cleaned coins make it into slabs. Yes, artificial, counterfeit, altered, or otherwise unacceptable coins also make it into slabs. The TPGs try to minimize these undesirables, but it is always going to happen, CAC be damned. The issue with cleaning is, however, trying to determine the extent or methods to which a coin can be cleaned and still make it into the slab. I think we would all agree things like whizzing, polishing, thumbing, hairlines and the like would be out, but there is considerable controversy concerning dipping, or even more extensive cleaning like your dollar.

[nwcs]

Yep, cleaned coins in slabs. I think as long as the surfaces are not visibly impaired they will let it in. And the rarer the coin, the more accepting they are. I think the top services still keep out far more than we think; stuff an average collector may be fooled by,

[James_OldeTowne]

Yep, cleaned coins in slabs. I think as long as the surfaces are not visibly impaired they will let it in. And the rarer the coin, the more accepting they are. I think the top services still keep out far more than we think; stuff an average collector may be fooled by,

I have to point out that included among the many hundreds of thousands of cleaned coins are hundreds of thousands that are in fact visibly impaired.

 

On another note, I would rather own a bust dollar with F-12 details and cleaned surfaces than a bust dollar with AU details and a hole, so again, the issue is to what degree a cleaning is acceptable. I happen to think TPGs have generated a little too much fright among some who do not realize that there are coin types simply come cleaned, and there's little that can be done about it. When I buy a bust dollar, slabbed or not, I expect it will have been cleaned, and I'm OK with that (most times), even if it is not my preference.

[realone]

If there is an old classic coin that hasn't been cleaned, I want it but what if there were only a handful, then we couldn't really collect them or if were lucky enough to have gotten a hold of one we would be very fortunate indeed. Be that as it may be, if said coin seems original and natural whether it was ever cleaned or not we would never really know, we can assume though that it had to have been at one time or another over its 200+- year life being in some ones hands, and owning one of these babies would be absolutely fine with me. I have to admit that i have some wonderful dimes form the 1700's and early 1800's that had to have been cleaned at one time by the look of them but they are stunning and the shear fact that they are so well preserved kind of trumps the huge possibility that they must have been cleaned at one time or another. So I can understand that the tpg's take this into consideration for older coinage and allow these exceptions to the rule due to the fact that coins that are 200+ years old in high au or ms deserve to be slabbed and preserved for future generations. Interestingly most of these dimes in high grade have pedigrees where one can compare photos from 50+- years ago so at least the probable cleaning had to have happened a long time ago and allowed to tone naturally over time even though at times the toning be slight.

[RI AL]

In following up on the subject of cleaned early dollars, I stumbled on an interesting section in Reiver's "The United States Early Silver Dollars, 1794-1803" on page 110.

 

Under the heading of "cleaned and dipped coins", Reiver describes how he surveyed 14 well known collectors/dealers in early dollars and asked them 2 questions:

 

1. How many early dollars have been lightly cleaned at one time in the past?

Reply: 79% raw, 76% certified

2. How many early dollars have been dipped at one time in the past?

Reply: 74% raw, 71% certified.

 

"Those who are most knowledgable feel nearly all early dollars have been cleaned and/or lightly dipped at one point., whether uncertified or certified. With combined (cumulative) early dollar experience of over 350 years, one can assume the consensus of those 14 is close to reality".

 

I guess I don't feel too badly then that all 3 of my early dollars;1795 Segs vf 25 cleaned, 1797 10x6 VF details cleaned, net Fine 12 ANACS, and the 1803 VF 30 PCGS have been messed with. Of course I would much rather they were fully original, but I guess these are pretty hard to find original and probably way out of my price range.

 

Just curious, assuming that these pieces were cleaned many years ago, what was the most common way of doing the deed? I assume the current market of dips and cleaners weren't available "back then".

 

Have a good day, everyone. RI AL

[James_OldeTowne]

Just curious, assuming that these pieces were cleaned many years ago, what was the most common way of doing the deed? I assume the current market of dips and cleaners weren't available "back then".

Without question, scrubbing seems to have been the most popular "contemporary" cleaning method, followed by polishing.

 

What is unfortunate is the near-paranoid attitude created by grading services that assume all such actions were taken with numismatic gain in mind. While many early coins have been cleaned so as to deceive, the fact is that a very large percentage were cleaned merely because previous owners liked "bright and shiny" for themselves.

 

There was a time when the coin collection was simply part of the silver cabinet, and twice a year, someone got out the polishing rag and shined up all of the silver.

[James_OldeTowne]

Followup post:

 

With regard to bust dollars, I think the percentages quoted by Reiver are about right overall, but when discussing bust dollars in EF or higher, the percentage of cleaned coins rises dramatically. Literally, in ten years of buying and selling bust dollars, I think I have seen at most FIVE that I would have considered truly original, and they were EF to AU (not UNC). I would suggest that at best, 97% of bust dollars in EF or better have been cleaned in some fashion. Maybe 3 in 100 are original... maybe.

[BillJones]

If every EARLY U.S. coin can has been cleaned were to be barred from going into a PCGS or NGC slab, the population of these coins would be very low. As young collector back in the late 1960s and early 1970s virtually every early dollar that I saw had been cleaned white. That was way the collectors wanted them, and that was why dealers and others cleaned them.

 

When I started to look for my early silver type coins, I tried very hard to find original coins. It was very hard from all denominations, but it was especially hard for the dollars because so many pieces had been made “commercially acceptable.” In the end the 1796 dollar that is in my collection was white when I bought it. Today it is getting grayer over time. Perhaps in a century or so it will be “original.” As for the other dollars in my collection, I’d use the word “original” for a couple of them and “original now” for a couple more.

 

I don’t have a problem with an early coin that has been lightly cleaned. Back in the day one the favorite methods was to go over the coin lightly with baking soda. Provided that it was not done too harshly, the hairlines were kept to a minimum.

 

[RI AL]

With all of this in mind, if the early dollar was an exceptional piece, but had been cleaned at some time in its past, would CAC even consider it for a green football?

 

Does CAC keep stats on how many coins and types/dates that get the precious CAC sticker??

 

 

[BillJones]

In the my mind the words "exceptional piece" and "cleaned" can't really go together unless you are talking about a major rarity that is very nice compared to the other examples that are known. I collect type so it is possible to avoid "cleaned" although given my budget that's no always been possible. For die variety collectors it's another story because the populations of those coins can be very low.

 

As for CAC I have no idea what runs through their minds because to date I have paid much attention to them. I have one CAC approved coin, and I own that one because I really liked the piece. The CAC sticker did not influence my purchase.

[Catbert]

What about Seated Dollars? Are they much different in the number of cleaned versions?

[BillJones]

A great many seated dollars have been cleaned, and a great many of them cannot be graded. A number of them have also been re-colored and can't be graded. When I was working on my type set, I ended up buying two Proof coins because so many of the certified seated dollars were just plain ugly in my view.

[James_OldeTowne]

What about Seated Dollars? Are they much different in the number of cleaned versions?

In my personal opinion, Seated dollars have suffered a little less at the high end, and a little more at the low end. For some reason, people will clean these in grades of VG or lower! (As if it would then pass as BU...) But, I believe there are some UNCs that really might be fully original. I actually think there may possibly be zero bust dollars in UNC that are truly fully original. I have never seen one.