bad experience at coin shop

[EZ_E]

Don't worry, Woody. Old farts never die, they just linger on.

[cpm9ball]

This will sound very harsh, but I put the full blame on the elderly couple if they were in good mental health.

 

First, being old is no excuse for not knowing the value of your property. If anything, their should have used their years on earth to learn how to get something properly appraised, get second opinions, and so forth. Here they acted like a 5 year old spending his parent's coin collection on candy.

 

There are many things I am not an expert at valuing. If my grandparents left me an old dining room set, I would make sure I fully understand it's market value, it's condition, everything about it. I wouldn't necessarily need a computer to do this.

 

If I'm selling my car in the classifieds, I don't just make up a price. Same thing if I'm buying a car in the classifieds, I fully research everything.

 

If I'm 80 years old and still in good mental health, then I should have learned over the years to give a damn about what I'm doing before I do it.

 

Now these elderly people may have been living comfortably, and not even care if they were ripped of by hundreds of dollars. Old people have a shift in their values, and maybe they didn't care how much they got for the coins.

 

If these elderly people were not in good mental health, and seemed confused at the entire process, then that is a different story.

 

This is how the world works. If I purchase stock in GM, and I don't read all of their financial statements and be well informed of their current business environment, then I'm at fault, not GM or my broker.

 

How about the elderly folks take full responsibility for their carelessness.

This might have had nothing to do with whether the sellers were elderly. You place "full blame" on the sellers, meaning you place none on the buyer. Would you feel the same way if he had paid them $1 each for the silver dollars? Or 10c each? Either way, I am saddened by your attitude and those of others who seem to feel that a buyer who takes advantage of a seller, is completely blameless.

 

I agree with Mark, and I would like to add...............

 

When you get old, let's hope that you don't have a sign on your back that says "SUCKER!"

 

When you get old, I hope you still possess all of your mental faculties.

 

When you get old, I hope that you still have family who cares about you and not just your estate.

 

Chris

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

There is absolutely no excuse for selling your valuables without knowing their approximate value.

 

Age does not matter, and again, the older you are, the more you should have the capability to conduct a transaction. I can see a teenager getting ripped off because they have no experience making deals. But a senior citizen has had many years to learn how to conduct business, and they are responsible for themselves.

 

I can imagine them selling their house. They would probably accept the offer of the first person that comes along. No help from a real estate agent, and no research as to how much the house is worth. Just accept the first deal that comes along. And then scoff when someone tries to make them understand that they might have been ripped off.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

There is absolutely no excuse for selling your valuables without knowing their approximate value.

 

Age does not matter, and again, the older you are, the more you should have the capability to conduct a transaction. I can see a teenager getting ripped off because they have no experience making deals. But a senior citizen has had many years to learn how to conduct business, and they are responsible for themselves.

 

I can imagine them selling their house. They would probably accept the offer of the first person that comes along. No help from a real estate agent, and no research as to how much the house is worth. Just accept the first deal that comes along. And then scoff when someone tries to make them understand that they might have been ripped off.

 

And I can imagine that you are making a number of assumptions about how they would sell a house.

[thehumantorch]

There is absolutely no excuse for selling your valuables without knowing their approximate value.

 

 

I agree, but this thread is really about a coin dealer that had the choice between making a fair offer that left room for a reasonable profit or making a *fork* offer. The dealer absolutely knew the value of the coins and chose to rip the old couple off. I would never knowingly deal with a dealer like that.

 

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

Fair enough, maybe I wouldn't do business with him either.

 

But this type of behavior is typical of all forms of business. Car dealers, jewelry, antiques etc...

 

On some foreign stocks I need to pay the market makers a 5-6% premium for no reason other than the market makers can get away with it. It's the price of doing business.

 

Try selling your football and baseball cards to a card shop, you'll get 50% of retail if you're lucky. Maybe only 25% unless it's something the dealer needs immediately.

 

How about the thruway truck stop fast food restaurants that charge double the normal prices. A chicken nugget value meal is about $9-$10 on the thruway where I live. What are you going to do?

 

Make your own decisions and live with them.

[coinman1794]

There is absolutely no excuse for selling your valuables without knowing their approximate value.

 

Age does not matter, and again, the older you are, the more you should have the capability to conduct a transaction. I can see a teenager getting ripped off because they have no experience making deals. But a senior citizen has had many years to learn how to conduct business, and they are responsible for themselves.

 

I can imagine them selling their house. They would probably accept the offer of the first person that comes along. No help from a real estate agent, and no research as to how much the house is worth. Just accept the first deal that comes along. And then scoff when someone tries to make them understand that they might have been ripped off.

 

 

Actualy, to cary your hypathetical example out logically, the coin dealer would be the equivelant of your real estate agent.

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

I understand the other side of the argument.

 

But let me ask one more thing.....

 

Suppose someone comes in with $1,000 (at spot) worth of 90% silver.

 

What is the specific buy price at which I am now ripping the person off? What is the acceptable discount rate, and who determines it?

[MarkFeld]

I understand the other side of the argument.

 

But let me ask one more thing.....

 

Suppose someone comes in with $1,000 (at spot) worth of 90% silver.

 

What is the specific buy price at which I am now ripping the person off? What is the acceptable discount rate, and who determines it?

Obviously, there aren't any universally agreed upon answers and different people will draw the line in different places, regarding what's considered fair/reasonable/ethical. And particular prices/margins will fall into a gray area and result in tough calls/legitimate differences of opinion, where there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.

 

However, none of the above excuses what the buyer did in this particular case. And I believe most people would agree that the situation in this thread was not one of those gray areas.

[Houston Investor]

From the original post here we are talking 20 morgan dollars in circulated condition plus most of a roll of mercury circ mercury dimes. We have no idea how worn or damaged some of the coins may have been. For the sake of estimation we will say 30 circ dimes or $3.00 worth. $23 face of 90% x .7234 = 16.6382 oz.

The 16.6382 oz x $13.33 (silver price per Kitco today) = $221.78 The individuals offering the material were not minors and had transportation to shop the material somewhere else.

 

The dealer in this situation purchased this lot for $81 essentially resulting in an instant potential profit of at least $140 considering he could probably flip this at a show or on the Bay at melt or slightly above. It seems the dealer purchased this at about 37% of what he may be able to sell it for. It would appear the dealer is (1) a business man who got a really good deal and (2) not exactly in need of this kind of material, and (3) the sellers may have not done their homework or cared. Nobody was forcing these people to take a low offer. Maybe all the cash on hand the dealer had was $81. Based on my experience buying coins from customers I would think such a low offer would be rejected. That it actually was accepted makes this stand out. But then consider the material - possibly very common and low end. While I can say I would have offered much more, I don't believe in butting in on someone elses deal on their turf. Wonder what that dealer would have flipped this stuff for to our observer? He probably would have embarrasingly put it away and said "sorry its for a customer" .

 

Unless something illegal happened here I question if this should be called a rip. Yes, it seems to be a really low offer but that is a subjective opinion. The first post stated our observer intended to make the dealer an offer on some of his material in the shop. I believe this dealer would have said the items are "priced as marked" or told him where to go.

 

[zrlevin]

From the original post here we are talking 20 morgan dollars in circulated condition plus most of a roll of mercury circ mercury dimes. We have no idea how worn or damaged some of the coins may have been. For the sake of estimation we will say 30 circ dimes or $3.00 worth. $23 face of 90% x .7234 = 16.6382 oz.

The 16.6382 oz x $13.33 (silver price per Kitco today) = $221.78 The individuals offering the material were not minors and had transportation to shop the material somewhere else.

 

 

Morgan dollars contain .7734 ozt of silver.

[Oldtrader3]

I think many of you information generation youngsters are assuming that elderly people know how to use a computer or where to find out the value of junk silver. The truth is, that when I lived in the retirement home, the only people there that knew how to use a computer were retired engineers, accounts or school teachers. None of the other seniors were able to use more than an email box.

 

Secondly, younger people have no appreciation for the problems of slight dementia caused by ill health or, particularly, heart failure issues. Heart failure problems can make a genius level I.Q. into a blithering incompetent. Believe me when I say that I have personal experience is this area.

 

Just wait until some of you are 75+ years old and see how well you are adept at keeping up with technology and having a clear mind without the ravages of dementia. Plus, people with dementia are ashamed of their condition and will not talk about it. That is most likely why those people would not talk to Jesbroken about their problem. This is typical behavior for elderly people with dementia, but of course none of you would understand that because you are not elderly with that issue.

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

In my previous posts I was assuming these elderly people had close to their full mental capacity.

 

Of course if they appeared in very poor health, you have an obligation to treat them differently.

 

But I am speaking about making transactions with mentally competent people. And at least one of these people in the example were well enough to get in a car and drive.

 

When mentally competent people accept your lowball offer, a deal is a deal.

[MarkFeld]

But I am speaking about making transactions with mentally competent people. And at least one of these people in the example were well enough to get in a car and drive.

I know of plenty of drivers who aren't what I'd consider mentally competent, to the point they should engage in various transactions. And they're not all old, either. Seriously.

[gmarguli]

This might have had nothing to do with whether the sellers were elderly. You place "full blame" on the sellers, meaning you place none on the buyer. Would you feel the same way if he had paid them $1 each for the silver dollars? Or 10c each? Either way, I am saddened by your attitude and those of others who seem to feel that a buyer who takes advantage of a seller, is completely blameless.

 

Bravo Mark. It's about time someone stood up to these awful people who want others (old sellers in this case) to take personal responsibility for their own actions. My fear is that we're going to become a nation of people who think for themselves, act for themselves, and take responsibility for themselves. (shudder) I want my nanny....

[ant]

In my previous posts I was assuming these elderly people had close to their full mental capacity.

 

Of course if they appeared in very poor health, you have an obligation to treat them differently.

 

But I am speaking about making transactions with mentally competent people. And at least one of these people in the example were well enough to get in a car and drive.

 

When mentally competent people accept your lowball offer, a deal is a deal.

 

my mother is 68 yrs old and all she knows is email if that. and she will tell you . i try to help and ill get a "uncle joe will do it for me". my mother is in great health and has no problems remembering. but when it comes to the net . its not her thing. many people she knows her age still refuse to use a debit card cause checks are what they know.

 

it shouldnt even matter about age. what is the original mesege didnt say an age? would others think different.

 

a rip is a rip

 

 

[cpm9ball]

But I am speaking about making transactions with mentally competent people. And at least one of these people in the example were well enough to get in a car and drive.

I know of plenty of drivers who aren't what I'd consider mentally competent, to the point they should engage in various transactions. And they're not all old, either. Seriously.

 

Mark, while I agree with you wholeheartedly, you are wasting your time arguing the issue with someone who probably could care less about anyone else.

 

Chris

[thehumantorch]

An additional comment. As I'm not a coin collector I had thought the value of the couple's coins was much higher than a few hundred $$ so an offer of $81 is low but perhaps not a 'rip off' type of offer. Many collectibles dealers routinely pay less than 50% of value depending on rarity and resale potential.

[MarkFeld]

An additional comment. As I'm not a coin collector I had thought the value of the couple's coins was much higher than a few hundred $$ so an offer of $81 is low but perhaps not a 'rip off' type of offer. Many collectibles dealers routinely pay less than 50% of value depending on rarity and resale potential.

That is certainly true about other collectibles. Often, though, part of the consideration is potential liquidity and knowing what the market will bear - the greater the liquidity and better defined/known the value, the lower the spread between buy and sell. In this case, the material was extremely liquid and a much smaller buy-sell spread seems warranted.

[MarkFeld]

This might have had nothing to do with whether the sellers were elderly. You place "full blame" on the sellers, meaning you place none on the buyer. Would you feel the same way if he had paid them $1 each for the silver dollars? Or 10c each? Either way, I am saddened by your attitude and those of others who seem to feel that a buyer who takes advantage of a seller, is completely blameless.

 

Bravo Mark. It's about time someone stood up to these awful people who want others (old sellers in this case) to take personal responsibility for their own actions. My fear is that we're going to become a nation of people who think for themselves, act for themselves, and take responsibility for themselves. (shudder) I want my nanny....

Greg, you forgot your sarcasm emoticon. That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

[James_OldeTowne]

That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

But Mark, the problem is that seldom do threads discuss the issue of personal responsibility. It always seems to be about the despicable coin dealer, ripping off the public left and right.

 

This dealer was a worm. But the sellers were fools (and their age is not a factor in the discussion, either). This is not a well balanced discussion unless the mistakes made by both parties are brought to light.

 

There were two parties who made poor decisions here. But the OP unfairly focuses only on one. When was the last time we saw a similar incident posted from the point of view of the very poorly though out decisions by the seller?

[DirtyGoldMan]

That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

But Mark, the problem is that seldom do threads discuss the issue of personal responsibility. It always seems to be about the despicable coin dealer, ripping off the public left and right.

 

This dealer was a worm. But the sellers were fools (and their age is not a factor in the discussion, either). This is not a well balanced discussion unless the mistakes made by both parties are brought to light.

 

There were two parties who made poor decisions here. But the OP unfairly focuses only on one. When was the last time we saw a similar incident posted from the point of view of the very poorly though out decisions by the seller?

 

The problem with your argument is that the coin dealer is increasingly angling to be considered a "professional", and taking advantage of someone less knowledgeable is decidedly unprofessional.

 

A medical parallel would be me convincing a patient to undergo a procedure that he/she did not need for my own financial benefit is similarly unprofessional. We would not blame the poor soul for taking the advice of the medical professional, the one with superior knowledge, would we?

[MarkFeld]

That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

But Mark, the problem is that seldom do threads discuss the issue of personal responsibility. It always seems to be about the despicable coin dealer, ripping off the public left and right.

 

This dealer was a worm. But the sellers were fools (and their age is not a factor in the discussion, either). This is not a well balanced discussion unless the mistakes made by both parties are brought to light.

 

There were two parties who made poor decisions here. But the OP unfairly focuses only on one. When was the last time we saw a similar incident posted from the point of view of the very poorly though out decisions by the seller?

 

The problem with your argument is that the coin dealer is increasingly angling to be considered a "professional", and taking advantage of someone less knowledgeable is decidedly unprofessional.

 

A medical parallel would be me convincing a patient to undergo a procedure that he/she did not need for my own financial benefit is similarly unprofessional. We would not blame the poor soul for taking the advice of the medical professional, the one with superior knowledge, would we?

James and Greg, in particular, and anyone else, what say you?

[James_OldeTowne]

My health and life are a far cry from the risk of selling coins. When was the last time you heard of a coin dealer take out an insurance policy to guard against "ripping off the public"?

 

The difference is that anyone with just mediocre mental competence can go to a bookstore or library and look up the value of a silver dollar. The same most certainly cannot be said of looking up a cure for cancer (or whatever).

 

I see no parallel whatsoever between Robert's example and the opening post.

 

Edited to add:

The closest parallel I can see here is that a patient has the option to get a second and third opinion. So does a seller of coins. And it is a prudent step to take, I believe.

[DirtyGoldMan]

My health and life are a far cry from the risk of selling coins. When was the last time you heard of a coin dealer take out an insurance policy to guard against "ripping off the public"?

 

The difference is that anyone with just mediocre mental competence can go to a bookstore or library and look up the value of a silver dollar. The same most certainly cannot be said of looking up a cure for cancer (or whatever).

 

I see no parallel whatsoever between Robert's example and the opening post.

 

Of course, coins and health are not on the same level of importance (coins are far more important! ).

 

However, professionalism is professionalism. The behavior of the dealer in the OP is very unprofessional and reduces the dealer community at large to appearing more like con artists than professionals. You cannot have it both ways.

[James_OldeTowne]

However, professionalism is professionalism. The behavior of the dealer in the OP is very unprofessional and reduces the dealer community at large to appearing more like con artists than professionals. You cannot have it both ways.

Take my wife, take my coins! No, just take my wife...

 

Robert, I am a thoroughly unprofessional coin dealer, as you know, yet I would never do what that person did. I completely agree with you that he is scum! But I think you would also have to agree with me that the sellers were fools. If and when I decide to sell my house someday, you can bet it won't go to the very first offer I get. I just do not think that professionalism is the only issue at stake here. Foolishness on the part of the sellers needs to be given its due part of the discussion.

[DirtyGoldMan]

James, while you do not make your living selling coins, you always act professionally. We both can agree on that, no doubt.

 

I think that when you are "on the spot", as this couple was, it is hard to think clearly and rationally and make the best decision for yourself. It may have taken them some nerve to come to the coin shop, perhaps they drove a long way, and their expectation was to be treated professionally and fairly. Even if they went to three shops, it is possible (moreover likely) that they would be quoted a similar low ball number. They do not know the business model of some of these B&M shops is to buy coins at ten cents on the dollar. Is it incumbent on them to spend countless hours researching their sale of a few Morgans?

[MarkFeld]

However, professionalism is professionalism. The behavior of the dealer in the OP is very unprofessional and reduces the dealer community at large to appearing more like con artists than professionals. You cannot have it both ways.

Take my wife, take my coins! No, just take my wife...

 

Robert, I am a thoroughly unprofessional coin dealer, as you know, yet I would never do what that person did. I completely agree with you that he is scum! But I think you would also have to agree with me that the sellers were fools. If and when I decide to sell my house someday, you can bet it won't go to the very first offer I get. I just do not think that professionalism is the only issue at stake here. Foolishness on the part of the sellers needs to be given its due part of the discussion.

James, if you work with a realtor, who has advised you what price to list your house at and the first offer is at your full asking price, will you turn it down? You're right, professionalism isn't the only issue at stake here. Among others is the issue of trusting someone with more knowledge than yourself to behave in a fair and ethical manner.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, if you work with a realtor, who has advised you what price to list your house at and the first offer is at your full asking price, will you turn it down?

I would take it. But, rest assured that the "list price" of my house is going to have some serious input on my part! I've actually already been down this road before. As a seller, you get to set the final "list price" for your house, not the realtor. And again, that takes a little research on your part, but it isn't hard to find "comps" and trends in your local real estate market. It's widely available material.

 

You're right, professionalism isn't the only issue at stake here. Among others is the issue of trusting someone with more knowledge than yourself to behave in a fair and ethical manner.

I agree with you, but I think it's a good idea probably for another thread. It's tough enough just to focus on only the two competing issues discussed so far without clouding arguments with yet another issue.

[MarkFeld]

James, if you work with a realtor, who has advised you what price to list your house at and the first offer is at your full asking price, will you turn it down?

I would take it. But, rest assured that the "list price" of my house is going to have some serious input on my part! I've actually already been down this road before. As a seller, you get to set the final "list price" for your house, not the realtor. And again, that takes a little research on your part, but it isn't hard to find "comps" and trends in your local real estate market. It's widely available material.

 

You're right, professionalism isn't the only issue at stake here. Among others is the issue of trusting someone with more knowledge than yourself to behave in a fair and ethical manner.

I agree with you, but I think it's a good idea probably for another thread. It's tough enough just to focus on only the two competing issues discussed so far without clouding arguments with yet another issue.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. "Trusting someone with more knowledge than yourself to behave in a fair and ethical manner" seems to me to be a large part of what this thread IS about. And you and a couple of other posters have apparently taken issue with those who do the trusting