How is it poss. for any circ. coin to *not* be "improperly cleaned"?

[ctrl-migration]

Like the title says, how is it possible for any circulated coin to ever *not* be described as "improperly cleaned"? Doesn't the very act of rubbing your fingers or anything else on the coin simulate to some degree a cleaning of the coin? Normal wear in pockets etc can also create hairlines marks and shine up only some areas of the coin, right? I'm not talking about blatant polishing or chemical alterations, but I am not understanding how any circulated coin could ever be slabbed without being a 'problem coin'.

 

Any better explanations?

[MTHead-migration]

Honest wear from handling of circulated coins is not considered cleaning and is acceptable. It's just wear incurred from use. They are slabbed at grades below MS.

[ctrl-migration]

"You keep posting blindly with no detailed pictures"

 

? You replied to a post in which I attached the images.

 

And hey, now, you start calling me a troll for asking questions that are legitimately coming to my mind, because, looking at one of the half dollars, I don't see how in some cases normal wear is distinguished from intentional rubbing. I'm asking for explanation here, not trolling, because I really don't see how some types of normal wear doesn't count as cleaning, like wear from cloth rubbing in pockets vs. someone using a rag briefly or someone rubbing it with their fingers vs. normal circulation. I'd like to know.

 

No worries though, I'll let myself out.

[MTHead-migration]

By your definition of wear my 1909S VDB Lincoln Cent, graded by PCGS as XF45, should have come back in a body bag as should all circulated coins submitted. Only uncirculated coins would make it into slabs.

[MarkFeld]

"You keep posting blindly with no detailed pictures"

 

? You replied to a post in which I attached the images.

 

And hey, now, you start calling me a troll for asking questions that are legitimately coming to my mind, because, looking at one of the half dollars, I don't see how in some cases normal wear is distinguished from intentional rubbing. I'm asking for explanation here, not trolling, because I really don't see how some types of normal wear doesn't count as cleaning, like wear from cloth rubbing in pockets vs. someone using a rag briefly or someone rubbing it with their fingers vs. normal circulation. I'd like to know.

 

No worries though, I'll let myself out.

In some cases it might be difficult to distinguish circulation from certain types of light cleaning. In most cases, however, it isn't that difficult, once you've been taught what to look for. So, while you might not be able to tell the difference at this point, 1) many people can, and 2) you, yourself can probably learn how to do so, also.

[123cents]

Maybe this will be of some help to you.

 

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/services/nogradebook.asp

[BankNote1]

Ctrl,

Why don't you purchase a few slabbed coins (PCGS, NGC, ANACS)? You can then compare and see the difference between "cleaned" and "not cleaned" circulated coins. For some reason you can't understand that the coins you sent in are damaged! Also you can ask question after question but until you actually see the difference between cleaned and uncleaned you will never know the difference!

[Oldtrader3]

Sorry, I did look again at your pictures and while they are small and difficult to discern what your coin surfaces look like, you did post pictures. It would help greatly if you could get better higher definition of the coin surfaces in additional pictures. The silver coins in your scans do look cleaned to me. The gold dollar image is too small for me to make any determination of the surface conditions of the coin at all.

 

The look of cleaned silver is the washed out, with no luster look, that your coins have. Most coins that are 100+ year old coins are toned to some degree. Also most coins have a present underlying luster which your coins appear to lack. If your coins are mostly a uniform shade of gray featureless surfaces which is not toning, it is generally accepted that they are probably cleaned. Although I shall have to reserve final judgment without better, high definition images or actually seeing your coins in person. You silver coins appear to have been cleaned and not professionally done or it would be much more difficult to tell that they were cleaned from your scans.

 

We all have at some time been fooled by cleaned coins, puttied coins or doctored coins. Some are so skillfully done that it is very difficult to tell even by close examination. As a result of this type of scam, in this hobby, I do not buy any (!!!!) raw coins from any dealer, even most nationally known, respected dealers. I have purchased raw coins from greatly respected dealers that were cleaned and the cleaning also fooled them. As a result, I have a few thousand $$$ worth of several raw coins from renowned dealers, that were skillfully cleaned and which I keep to remind me of the folly of buying raw coins, sight unseen! Do so at your own risk!

 

Such are the pitfalls of this hobby! Buy books, go to shows, and peruse dealer's stores and go slow until you have some real knowledge. Look at coins until you are comfortably familiar with how a particular series and particular mintmark, in that series looks and if you buy raw coins, you still will occasionally get fooled. Each series of coins has it's own look and characteristics, as does each mintmark within the series. Even individual coins within a series are different from other coins in that series, particularly with gold coins.

 

I really am not trying to be mean to you. We all have been had at one time or another and your coins, from what I can see will not grade. Please try and do the things that we all have suggested and until you have more expertise, buy slabbed coins from PCGS or NGC. At least then, you will have a reasonable guarantee of the coins being genuine and the fact that they will grade. However, there are puttied and doctored coins in slabs. I see them all the time in auction scans, particularly small denomination gold coins. Small denomination gold coins are an area best left to specialists until you know what you are doing. I have collected gold for over 40 years and still have to look at a coin in hand and closely examine it to be sure of what I am getting.

 

Please study and learn for yourself. There is no easy way in coin collecting not to be taken if you are not knowledgeable.

 

 

[MikeInFL]

Ctrl, The TPGs make the subjective judgement if cleaning is or is not "market accetable". There are many, many coins in TPG holders that were cleaned before being slabbed, yet the TPGs consider them acceptable. The key is to predict how a TPG will likely judge a particular coin -- and that is only gained through experience. Another challenge is that the TPGs are not consistent -- a coin submitted twice could come back cleaned one time, and slabbed another. All IMHO...Mike

[MikeInFL]

p.s. until you can tell the difference I would suggest NOT buying ANY coins -- slabbed or not.

[ant]

one good way to get practice is to find coins that appeer to be cleaned and post a pic letting us know why you believe it to be cleaned. later you will be able to get most right due to getting them wrong in begining it is also a fun thing to do while learning.

 

like in this auction in my opinion i think it looks too void of dark spots or dirt. the wear is noticable but there are only dark dirt spots on small amount of coin around letters.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1892-O-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-RARE-KEY-DATE-COIN_W0QQitemZ370072568430QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item370072568430&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1308

 

if i am wrong then some1 with more knowledge will chime in and let me know what they see and what they think and so on.

[BillJones]

The key concept is a circulated coin has a “look” to it that is the result of normal usage. Getting to know this look is a part of acquiring a “numismatic eye.” Developing a “numismatic eye” requires time, practice and some God-given talent. There are a few aspiring collectors whom I have known who never could develop it.

 

The general concept is some that SCREAMS the phrase “Some one has tampered with me intentionally!!!!” is a sign of trouble. Something that has the look of normal usage is perfectly acceptable or even desirable.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Ant, I hate to say this, but this seller on Ebay's coins, especially the Morgans, look cleaned to me.

[Desert Gold]

I found this to be a very helpful post.

 

Thanks

[WoodenJefferson]

One has to remember that coin collecting is a by-product of the coin manufacturing industry, an industry of controls intended to maintain our ever fluctuating economy.

 

The only coins coming out of the mint directly focused at the collectors, are the mint & proof sets and lastly, the modern commemoratives. Even the bullion is supposed to be purchased as an investment for the future but collectors were immediately attracted to high grade specimens in both silver and gold.

 

I find that pre 1965 silver coinage wears differently than the same denomination clad counterparts, as do the post 1982 cents. The silver coin circulation wear is subtle in nature and could never be misconstrued as being cleaned or manipulated with chemicals or with abrasives.

 

Even wear from the PO-1 to AU-58 happens in definable stages, just as the Sheldon Scale predicts. Due to intended purposes, i.e.; circulation, these stages are identifiable because of high point wear characteristics as noted, on each of the denominations & series.

 

All the different coins minted throughout all the years can be identified as to the amount of circulation wear, or in most cases if that coin has ever been cleaned, tooled, altered or manipulated in some way, as to deceive or to enhance it’s natural occurrence.

 

As others have already stated, in the hobby, circulation, as intended, is not considered as “cleaning” and a properly circulated coin is readily acceptable form of what was once a Mint State condition coin.

 

I hope these post help you understand our hobby in a better light. To be discouraged in the very begining of a path chosen, requires at bit of guidance to get you back on the beaten trail.

 

If you want to be a trail blazer, remember, they are on thier own until the path is well worn.

 

[World Colonial]

One way to become quickly discouraged when you do not know what you are doing is by buying coins that are immediately worth less than you paid for them possibly a lot less. That will happen by buying problem coins andthis will quickly frustrate almost anyone.

 

I've only had a few coins that cost me more than a modest amount (though they would be chump change to bigger spenders) end up as rejects. But I've had my share of cheaper or modestly priced coins rejected.

 

There is this one dealer that I buy from who has very competitive prices but also sells the occasional problem coin. Like one I paid $250 for recently. So now I simply will not buy a coin that costs that much from them. Then there is another dealer who has never sold me a problem coin and I will trust their descriptions until proven otherwise. (All of these coins are from price lists and sight unseen.) But I would not do that with the typical dealer because my limited experience has been that most sell their fair share of them.