A quick MS70 experiment for those that don't think it turns copper blue

[gmarguli]

I think this was a good experiment for two reasons.....it clearly showed that in the case of Brown copper....MS70 can indeed change the color to Blue....and just as importantly....it shows what can be hiding on the surface of a coin underneath a thick layer of toning.

 

This is pretty shocking. Someone should alert the TPG as I swear to this day they still slab blue copper - both PF and MS.

 

I'm not sure you should have posted this information here. If the coin doctors get their hands on these ultra advanced doctoring techniques, we can all kiss this hobby goodbye.

Greg, you have a lot to offer on this and many other subjects - why not make your point without being facetious?

 

"Hasn't this been beat to death already? Yes it appears that MS70 can alter the color of copper and yes the TPG's don't have to grade it if they don't want to, and yes, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it". - relicsncoins

[kryptonitecomics]

I started this thread because someone across the street mentioned once again that it does not change the color of copper.....seeing how I have never used MS70 on copper I tried it.

 

I thoought I would post the results so others could be informared as well....and I don't have an agenda so those that choose not to participate or add to the discussion need not post.

 

In case some of you may not realize......we do have new members that join everyday and this might be the first they have heard of this....I know it's a novel idea to the all knowing but lets give some of the newer members a chance to learn a little bit more about some of the ways that coins can be treated and some of the results of such treatments

[gmarguli]

In case some of you may not realize......we do have new members that join everyday and this might be the first they have heard of this....I know it's a novel idea to the all knowing but lets give some of the newer members a chance to learn a little bit more about some of the ways that coins can be treated and some of the results of such treatments

 

The same could be said for every topic that is ever discussed here. A new member never read about any of those either, but we don't rehash them every couple of weeks.

 

MS70/blue copper is such a tiny part of coins that I'm really amazed that some people on these forums harp on it so much. This topic has been beaten to death, dug up, beaten again, etc so much it is unbelievable.

 

How about a new topic on working coins that hasn't been beaten to death. How about heat/hairlines/color. Super easy topic about how they relate and everyone with a gas stove can play along. :shrug:

[kryptonitecomics]

Let me state for the record again...if you have nothing to add and you don't like the topic...it is extremely easy to avoid opening the thread becuase I clearly stated MS70/blue copper in the title.

 

The AT vs NT debate has been beaten to death as well.....that doesn't stop me from posting my opinion on coins when asked.....If I ever tire of them....I will just ignore the threads

 

 

[Coindude]

Looks like we're gonna need a group hug!

[WinstonWare]

[gmarguli]

Let me state for the record again...if you have nothing to add and you don't like the topic...it is extremely easy to avoid opening the thread becuase I clearly stated MS70/blue copper in the title.

 

The AT vs NT debate has been beaten to death as well.....that doesn't stop me from posting my opinion on coins when asked.....If I ever tire of them....I will just ignore the threads

 

No problem. I'll make a mental note that you like to rehash beaten to death topics. (thumbs u

[MAULEMALL]

I think this was a good experiment for two reasons.....it clearly showed that in the case of Brown copper....MS70 can indeed change the color to Blue....and just as importantly....it shows what can be hiding on the surface of a coin underneath a thick layer of toning.

 

This is pretty shocking. Someone should alert the TPG as I swear to this day they still slab blue copper - both PF and MS.

 

I'm not sure you should have posted this information here. If the coin doctors get their hands on these ultra advanced doctoring techniques, we can all kiss this hobby goodbye.

In caser any newbs missed it...

They seem to be showing up all the time. (thumbs u

[Coindude]

In the few months that I've been seriously hanging out here an posting, I have yet to see this topic be addressed. As for the AT / NT debate, it seems like it's been rehashed 100 times. Is this an AT / NT debate? Sorta I guess, but I see it more as a science experiment for new people. For me, like I originally stated, I've done this experiment before just for my own learning, as well as dipping copper into EZ-est or Jeweluster as it used to be called. Why, so I'd know when a coin had been dipped.

 

There is a dip that, is no longer available, that will restore copper cents to beautiful original red and cleans up mirrors nicely though. I'm looking for some myself, can't find any and I've been looking for years. But, I've seen the results and they are absolutely amazing.

 

So, for me, this thread is absolutely worthwhile.

[MikeInFL]

Please don't let the people who would rather disparage than help disuade you, Shane.

[MAULEMALL]

Please don't let the people who would rather disparage than help disuade you, Shane.

 

 

And of course feel free to have it graded and sell it for a profit...

 

I know of 3 dealers named or posting to this thread that have.. (thumbs u

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't think it would grade and if it did it would be worth what...like $4 bucks in NGC plastic?

 

Let's just say I educated myself and everyone else was along for the ride

 

WARNING...I will be applying olive oil to the coins surface any minute and will bring this topic back to the top with new pics.....WARNING

[PCcoins]

I don't believe the coin would grade, because it doesn't have a market acceptable look to it. Very informing Shane, I didn't know that MS70 would have this reaction with copper. I don't get what people are getting so bent out of shape about? I see it as a very educational thread.

[WinstonWare]

 

Let's just say I educated myself and everyone else was along for the ride

 

WARNING...I will be applying olive oil to the coins surface any minute and will bring this topic back to the top with new pics.....WARNING

 

I tried this myself a while back and couldn't get any results I must just be a terrible chemist I think this a good thread. We've talked about it before but not everyone was here at the time and it's always interesting to see what other peoples' results are...

[kryptonitecomics]

Ok...here we go....additional parts of the experiment as requested by Rick Snow ATS

 

Shane,

 

I have seen some MS copper coins which had that look. I think the natural occuring oils got removed and left an "Acetone" effect. Try applying Blue ribbon coin preserver to the 1957 cent and see if that "toning" dissapears. If so, the surface of the coin didn't tone, it was stripped of surface impurities. Copper naturally attracts oil (and dirt). Strip that oil and dirt and it looks strange.

 

FYI - I write about this in my book (Attribution Guide 1870-1889 pg. 142) with regards to Proof Indians and MPL's. There are naturaly toned proofs and "enhanced" toned proofs in these series as well as phony toned proofs. With some practice you can tell them apart.

 

 

Since I did not have any blue ribbon I used some olive oil on the surface and then dabbed as much of it off as possible. I would say that the blue tint is almost completely removed and with blue ribbon...it might have been returned to just about normal.

 

 

and then just for kicks.....I took a someone advice and heated the coin on the stove. The obverse had residual olive oil so it ended up having a rusted look becuase the oil sort of coked onto the surface. The revese however turned into a 1943 Steel cent in appearance with some touches of blue and pink etc :Funny;

 

 

and here is the original plus the originally cleaned coin...

 

 

 

 

[MikeInFL]

I don't get what people are getting so bent out of shape about?

 

I believe it is because some on this forum have used MS70 to conserve copper, turned them blue, upgraded them, then sold them for profit -- and that's why I suspect they don't like it being brought back up. Still others defend those actions out of friendship and try and point the fingers at others, as if that changes anything.

 

As you might imagine, the first few times this was discussed tempers (including my own) flared, and the issue has been a loaded one ever since...Mike

 

 

[MikeInFL]

 

Shane,

 

While nowhere near as obvious as the before pics, I still see some blue in that coin -- but it is nowhere near as blatant of an AT job as before. Interesting -- I wonder if the oil is somehow interfering with the thin-film that originally caused the blue color to show up.

 

Thanks for sharing...MIke

[MAULEMALL]

I don't get what people are getting so bent out of shape about?

 

I believe it is because some on this forum have used MS70 to conserve copper, turned them blue, upgraded them, then sold them for profit -- and that's why I suspect they don't like it being brought back up. Still others defend those actions out of friendship and try and point the fingers at others, as if that changes anything.

 

As you might imagine, the first few times this was discussed tempers (including my own) flared, and the issue has been a loaded one ever since...Mike

 

 

Are you speaking of when Mark sold the blue indian?? He said it was only a one time deal and he only made a miniscule amount..He even fully disclosed it being a MS 70 coin... You should let that go..

 

 

 

[jackson64]

I wasn't aware of this issue..thanks Shane for the thread and the whimsical way in which you played kitchen chemist...was a fun and informative read except for the posters with serious issues of anger....

 

 

PS: I still like the look of some of those bluish/purple old Indianheads...though I now know better than to pay extra for one..

[chinook]

I wonder if the oil is somehow interfering with the thin-film that originally caused the blue color to show up.

 

 

Yes.

[Newmismatist]

Shane

 

Try MS70 on a number of copper pennies - both circulated and uncirculated. You can just pick them out of circulation If you can't find any Uncs, pick up a common date roll at the nextcoin show you attend - I think they need to be minted prior to 1980 - let us know how many turn blue.

[kryptonitecomics]

Shane

 

Try MS70 on a number of copper pennies - both circulated and uncirculated. You can just pick them out of circulation If you can't find any Uncs, pick up a common date roll at the nextcoin show you attend - I think they need to be minted prior to 1980 - let us know how many turn blue.

 

 

Will do Ron (thumbs u

[BankNote1]

I am glad I read this forum. Boy I'm glad that I do not collect proof Indian or Lincoln cents!!!

Does make me wonder which coins I have that might have been treated in some way???