If you had to choose.....

[SteveInNebr]

Let me preface this by saying....I know ,I know, buy the coin , not the slab.

Suppose you saw 4 examples of the same coin...all in a TPG'd slab that wasn't one of the main 4, all from different TPG's.......would any of them be closer to what the grade says than the other ones?...or does it make a difference?.....

[MunkyMan95]

Even if it's not the top 4, I have more respect for some services than others. PCI and SEGS, and even more recently DGS would be held in higher regard by me than ABCD and LMNOP

[okbustchaser]

They may all be exactly on the grade...FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL COMPANY. All TPG's grade to different standards. The trick is to figure out how those standards compare to each other. (and to your personal standards.)

[cpm9ball]

Let me preface this by saying....I know ,I know, buy the coin , not the slab.

Suppose you saw 4 examples of the same coin...all in a TPG'd slab that wasn't one of the main 4, all from different TPG's.......would any of them be closer to what the grade says than the other ones?...or does it make a difference?.....

 

..........."would any of them be closer"..............some more than others...........maybe!

 

Chris

[physics-fan3.14]

Its all a crapshoot. Take the one that most closely matches your own standards. If that's not calibrated to NGC, PCGS, or ANA standards, however, you're still gonna get screwed.

[PerryHall]

Show me the coins and I'll answer your question.

[BillJones]

They may all be exactly on the grade...FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL COMPANY. All TPG's grade to different standards. The trick is to figure out how those standards compare to each other. (and to your personal standards.)

 

I really don't agree this standards excuse. Some of the really low level TPGs are in business for one reason: to help crooked dealers rip-off ignorant people. Their “standards” are designed to over grade or ignore problems or alterations on coins to help unscrupulous people get higher than market prices for what they are offering.

 

Many years ago there was totally bogus mail order coin company called Riverside that sold coins using their “unique grading standards.” Their standards included whizzing copper coins and selling them “Gem Uncirculated red copper.” They also cleaned and over graded silver coins as well. The proof as to what kind of company they were could be seen in their prices for rolls of circulated silver dollars. Their prices for those rolls were high and not competitive at all. In other words in areas where they could manipulate the grades in order to charge high prices for what they were selling, their mark-ups were very high.

 

Among dealers, one could spot Riverside coins quite easily, and they were known as “Riverside coins” because they were always cleaned and ruined. Not only were the initial prices too high, the future was bleak for those who bought the coins because the coins had damaged. Riverside’s motto was “our unique grading system allows us to sell coins to you at the best prices in the industry.”

 

The Federal Trade Commission was not impressed. They shut Riverside down and got them convicted for mail fraud.

 

“Different grading standards” is just an excuse. And it’s not one that should be used to condone crooked, unethical behavior.

 

[WinstonWare]

I would say that it doesn't make any difference.

[okbustchaser]

They may all be exactly on the grade...FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL COMPANY. All TPG's grade to different standards. The trick is to figure out how those standards compare to each other. (and to your personal standards.)

 

I really don't agree this standards excuse. Some of the really low level TPGs are in business for one reason: to help crooked dealers rip-off ignorant people. Their “standards” are designed to over grade or ignore problems or alterations on coins to help unscrupulous people get higher than market prices for what they are offering.

 

Many years ago there was totally bogus mail order coin company called Riverside that sold coins using their “unique grading standards.” Their standards included whizzing copper coins and selling them “Gem Uncirculated red copper.” They also cleaned and over graded silver coins as well. The proof as to what kind of company they were could be seen in their prices for rolls of circulated silver dollars. Their prices for those rolls were high and not competitive at all. In other words in areas where they could manipulate the grades in order to charge high prices for what they were selling, their mark-ups were very high.

 

Among dealers, one could spot Riverside coins quite easily, and they were known as “Riverside coins” because they were always cleaned and ruined. Not only were the initial prices too high, the future was bleak for those who bought the coins because the coins had damaged. Riverside’s motto was “our unique grading system allows us to sell coins to you at the best prices in the industry.”

 

The Federal Trade Commission was not impressed. They shut Riverside down and got them convicted for mail fraud.

 

“Different grading standards” is just an excuse. And it’s not one that should be used to condone crooked, unethical behavior.

 

And Riverside coins quickly found a market level of their own which could easily be compared to any other TPG coin. Did some unknowing collectors get burned? I'm sure they did. Many collectors get burned buying plastic rather than coins from all TPGs. This will continue to happen until collectors start buying coins intead of plastic.

 

IMO, the greater danger to the new collector/investor is the oft repeated mantra that ALL coins in 1st tier TPGs can be trusted to be original, undamaged, uncleaned, properly graded coins. This simply isn't true. You know it. I know it. The market knows it--but refuses to admit it since it would scare the fish.

 

With all due respect to our hosts, ALL TPGs are in business to help dealers palm off substandard coins. Their original stated purpose had absolutely nothing to do with helping collectors. Instead it was simply to create a sight unseen market where dogs could be sold without any recourse by the buyer.

 

Are all TPGs in business to facilitate "crooked, unethical behavior"? Of course not. But, the end user (ie the buyer) still has a responsiblity to make a decision as to which coin he wants and in which holder he wants to own it.

[Conder101]

.would any of them be closer to what the grade says than the other ones?

This implies that the coins have an absolute objective grade that everyone would agree to and we are comparing that objective grade to the grade on the label. But that isn't what we have. Instead everyone would look at the coins, judge them by their own SUBJECTIVE opinion of the grade of each and comparing them to the grade on the label. And every one person looking at their coins will come up with slightly different opinions as to the grade of each coin.

 

Now if you could take a large enough sample of opinions you could eventually arrive at a consensus of opinion as to which company is more "accurate" and the order of declining "accuracy", but it would only be valid for that group of four coins. Select another group of coins and you could come up with a completely different order. Do enough groups you might be able to establish some trends, but you have to be careful to include all different grade levels and series or any overall opinions would be invalid. You also have to take into consideration time periods for grading and whether the companies standards have or are changing over time. And are OUR perceptions and standards changing over time as well?

 

This is why I always say that the TPG's opinions do not matter. The ONLY opinion that counts when you are buying a coin is yours. It's your money, and the coin is going into your collection. It needs to be YOUR decision about whether the coin fills your needs and desires for the collection. If YOU don't think it makes the grade, who cares that the TPG says it does.

[BillJones]

OK okbustchaser, have it your way ...

 

But I will tell you this. Down here in Florida I see coins that in "third world" holders that I will GUARANTEE you will be over graded with respect to the quality anticipated by those who publish the quotes in widely accepted price guides 100% of the time. Does that wording express the point that I am trying to make?

 

And no, Riverside did not sell coins in slabs because slabs did not exist when they were in business. Their operation was one of the reasons WHY certified coins came on the market.

 

And yes, not all coins that are in PCGS and NGC are all that they claim to be IMO. But their opinions on grades come closer to market standards FAR more often those of these fly-by-night, out to get you, slab companies.

 

I’ve tried to make the point as clear as I can. Some companies have no intention of grading the coins in their slabs accurately. They are out to supply inventory to unscrupulous, unethical sellers. If you think that it is ethical for a company to sell “investment grade” coins to unsuspecting people, then your standards lower than mine. It’s no fun to have to tell friends of my in-laws that the 1921 Peace dollar for which they paid $3,000 some years ago is worth $125 because the company that sold the coin to them ripped them off.

 

But that’s what happens. You can argue that the people were stupid to make that kind of investment, but it does not make what that company did right.

 

[okbustchaser]

Yes, Bill, those coins very well--in fact, I accept your assertion of always-- will be overgraded when compared to the same number on a 1st tier slab. However, the question that should be asked by a prospective buyer isn't "Is the coin overgraded?" It should instead be "How does XYZ's grading standards compare to the top tier standards?" For example, if by looking at the actual coins rather than just the labels I can conclude that the average XYZ grade is 3 points higher than the same coin would be in a PCGS holder then it makes no difference what holder it is in. I can arrive at a market price for it.

 

As for unethical companies and/or dealers who steal from unsuspecting customers they will always exist. It is a fact of life that certain people are crooks. If they weren't ripping off people with 3rd world coin holders then they would be ripping off people in some other way. If an extra dollar can be made then there are going to be people looking to make it.

 

The fact that this is true does not make it right. I never stated that it did. DO NOT call my ethics into question simply because I believe in taking a little personal responsiblity for my mistakes.

[BillJones]

The fact that this is true does not make it right. I never stated that it did. DO NOT call my ethics into question simply because I believe in taking a little personal responsiblity for my mistakes.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't want to offend you. But I can't bear people who make excuses for those who commit illegal or unethical acts ON PURPOSE. Their actions should be condemned and not coated with excuses.

 

There have been and grading services who are in the business to deceive people and aid abet people who make a living deceiving people. And such grading services make it harder for those are honest and above board.

 

Years ago a Boston dealer was defending on coin "investment" firm after I told him that they are a bunch of crooks. Later on the Federal Trade Commission shut down that firm and forbid its owners from ever dealing in coins again. After that the dealer saw my point. Defending the indefensible will often damage your reputation and that of the industry in which you work. There is nothing to be gained by defending crooks.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Let me preface this by saying....I know ,I know, buy the coin , not the slab.

Suppose you saw 4 examples of the same coin...all in a TPG'd slab that wasn't one of the main 4, all from different TPG's.......would any of them be closer to what the grade says than the other ones?...or does it make a difference?.....

I think you answered the question by what I bolded in your quote. It is simply not possible to answer your question without seeing the coins.

[okbustchaser]

Sorry I got a little hot there. I don't condone or make excuses for those "who commit illegal or unethical acts ON PURPOSE." Those who commit illegal acts should go to jail, not to the bank.

 

Are many of the 3rd world grading companies in existance merely to catch an unsuspecting fish? Yes, I don't think anyone (other that those companies themselves) would say otherwise. My gripe is with those who condemn those companies without holding the 1st world graders to the same ethical standards. This is exactly what is happening when one gives newbies the advise "You can trust coins in PCGS/NGC plastic to be properly graded, original, unmessed with coins." when he actually knows that the grade can't be trusted to be reproduced on a new submittal and that PCGS and NGS often grade over-dipped, cleaned, and/or AT coins.

 

To take your example above of the $3000.00 1921 Peace dollar in a 3rd world slab (or raw, you didn't say) a step further now imagine it in a PCGS 66 holder. It has a stated value of about $7000.00. But wait a minute, some dealer buys it as a 66, cracks it, and gets it into a 67 slab. He then sells it for $50000.00. Someone got a heck of a shafting buying PCGS plastic whether it was the original owner who trusted the PCGS grade and sold a 67 for 66 money or the end buyer who trusted the PCGS grade and paid 67 money for a 66 coin.

 

Edit to add: I don't mean to question the ethics of either PCGS or NGC in this post...both are to the best of my knowledge extemely ethical organizations. I instead mean to question the ethics of those dealers who exclusively sell coins slabbed by these companies while telling their customers that they can place their trust completely in the hands of these companies.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

To take your example above of the $3000.00 1921 Peace dollar in a 3rd world slab (or raw, you didn't say) a step further now imagine it in a PCGS 66 holder. It has a stated value of about $7000.00. But wait a minute, some dealer buys it as a 66, cracks it, and gets it into a 67 slab. He then sells it for $50000.00. Someone got a heck of a shafting buying PCGS plastic whether it was the original owner who trusted the PCGS grade and sold a 67 for 66 money or the end buyer who trusted the PCGS grade and paid 67 money for a 66 coin.

 

The 1921 Peace Dollar was raw. But you can do much the same thing today with third world slabs if you find people who poorly informed and too lazy or not able to ask for opinions from people like those who post on this forum.

 

As for your example of the MS-66 coin up graded to MS-67, you really have judge those on a case by case basis. I'm not a crack-out artist, but I will tell you that I have purchased coins that were under graded in the slab. And I am not a saint. If I think that the coin is under graded, and there is a buck to made by re-submitting the coin, I'll do it. My batting average has been nearly perfect on those cases.

 

I'll give you an example. I had 1909 Indian half eagle that I bought raw as kid in the mid 1960s. The coin was said to be a "Gem" then. But today's standards it was not, but it was Mint State. Back in the late 1980s I submitted the coin along with the best of my other gold type coins to PCGS through a dealer. At the time PCGS was using "rattle slabs" and their grading was really too conservative. The coin came back as an AU-58. (BTW the other three coins I sent in were under graded too. They all got up grades later.)

 

When the time comes to sell, what would you do? Would you sell the coin as AU-58 and get a lot less money for it just becuase PCGS gave it a grade? Or would you crack it out? I cracked it out, sent it to NGC and it came back as an MS-63, which is the grade it deserved. I got an extra $1,000 for it from a dealer who bought it at the wholesale level.

 

Am I a crook? You decide. Grading mistakes can break both ways. And nobody says that you have to accept less money because the grading service was too conservative or flat out made a mistake.

 

The bottom line is you have know how to grade coins to deal and buy slabs. You can't rely on the holder although the holder has a lot to do with what the selling price is.

[okbustchaser]

The bottom line is you have know how to grade coins to deal and buy slabs. You can't rely on the holder although the holder has a lot to do with what the selling price is.

 

And that is exactly what I have been saying about 3rd world slabs as well as 1st. If a person does his homework it doesn't matter what initials are on the label. He can arrive at the proper price to offer for it. If he doesn't do his homework then the odds are high that eventually some unscrupulous dealer will body slam him--regardless of the holder.

[Bruceswar]

The bottom line is you have know how to grade coins to deal and buy slabs. You can't rely on the holder although the holder has a lot to do with what the selling price is.

 

And that is exactly what I have been saying about 3rd world slabs as well as 1st. If a person does his homework it doesn't matter what initials are on the label. He can arrive at the proper price to offer for it. If he doesn't do his homework then the odds are high that eventually some unscrupulous dealer will body slam him--regardless of the holder.

 

We have a winner! This is what I said long ago and some others have echoed this. Knowledge is power!

[Oldtrader3]

I too have bought a couple of Saints that were in ICG holders which I cracked and crossed from MS62-ICG to MS64-NGC. Is this unethical, no I don't believe so. I bought these coins from experienced dealers, who knew gold coins, and do not have any pangs of conscience about spotting a good deal on an undergraded coin. I am very wary of coins in third world slabs though. I have also been burned well a couple of times by ANACS slabs because you can not always see what you need to see through plastic. The refraction of light through plastic can fool you, especially indoors.