Grading standards have changed.....for the FS nickels anyway!

[Leothelion]

Hi Everyone

I don't exactly know what it is but it seems that more and more MS63, MS64 subpar coins are showing up in MS65, MS66 slabs and the like, MS64 and 65 in MS66 and 67 slabs and so on.

Not long ago, in the last 2-3 years, several tough FS nickels came out of the woodwork and my guess is, a few were found in rolls but most came from private collections. Is the supply exhausted? I know of a few veteran FS collectors who are sitting on their collections and have no plans to give them up. So if the supply is exhausted, have the TGC lowered the standards on coins that are making their way into the MS65, 66 and 67 slabs to create (make available) more, so to speak, to increase the supply of higher numbered slabbed coins for certified coin collectors?

I've pondered this question for quite some time as I've returned just about every coin that has reached my desk. The coins either have weak strikes, one sided cameos, carbon spots, nick plagued obverses, bridges and nicks in the steps, lack of luster and the problems go on. And most of these coins are in PCGS holders with one NGC coin. Of course, it's known that ebay and teletrade are the junk yards for unwanted coins. But many sellers certify coins for the purpose of selling them.

Is it just me? Have I become too picky? I do know that there are many sellers out there who do not like to sell to me because I have returned too many coins to them. That could be another topic; Why do sellers get pi$$ed off when they don't make a sale? I have two sellers who have blocked me from bidding in their auctions.

But then again when I go to my bank vault to look at my colletion, I'm not seeing these problems with the coins I've collected in the past.

My grading standards are set like this. Weak struck coins, marked up profiles, coins with carbon spots, coins that lack luster, dull looking are MS64 and less graded coins.

A MS65 has very few marks with a virtually clean profile and fields with no distracting marks unless they are hidden in the hair or devices. The coin has full luster and is always fully strucked. Same goes for a MS66 but the coin must have only one mark and not in the focal areas of the coin. A MS67 and higher grades including proofs, the marks are virtually nonexistant. The luster is full blown and the strike is very sharp. The MS67 coin should be on the verge of perfection. I can't write all the critera's here but these standards are a few that I look for in a coin.

And I guess I'm referring to modern coins here only again as the classics take off into other perspectives.

Well, I'm just ranting on here. Any thoughts?

 

Leo

 

And I want to add; when I spend $30 to $1000 on a coin, I expect it to be all there, without the problems I've been encountering these past several months. Still

[GDJMSP]

Leo -

 

Since I don't actively collect Jeffs I can't really comment about them. But overall - yeah I'd agree with you that many of the coins found just about any slab are overgraded. There are some undergraded too - but they're fewer and farther between.

 

I've always been mystified when I look at 2 different coins both the same series, date & mint mark and graded the same - but yet the coins are night and day apart from one another in regard to quality. But then I guess that's why I'm not a coin grader.

[RobertB]

If you want to talk nickels get a hold of Hoot. Period.

[Leothelion]

If you want to talk nickels get a hold of Hoot. Period.

 

The name does sound familiar! Does he post here? I reckon I just might do that. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Leo

[RobertB]

Yes he commonly posts here.

[Hoot]

Hi Leo - I agree with the standards that you post, but I give a little lenience with lustre on MS65 coins, as a 66 or 67 should show better lustre, IMO. (And from one of your previous posts, I don't think that a Jeff must have FS to be a 67). I can't say that I've had the same experience that you've had recently with Jefferson grades, but you've been around a lot longer than me. My experience of the last couple of years of submissions makes me think that PCGS has gotten very tough of late. I have had to resubmit at least a dozen clear cut FS Jeffs to PCGS to get the proper designation. Of those submissions, I have had two of those resubmissions change grade - one went from MS64 to AU58 and the other went from MS65 to MS64. The rest have kept the grade but were finally recognized as being FS coins - no hits on the steps and at least 5 full steps. Of late, PCGS seems very picky about the number and placement of nicks, especially in focal areas of the coin. Jefferson's cheek is given a little slack due to the fact that it's the most likely place to see any ticking - minor or major.

 

With NGC, I have had to resubmit fewer coins to get the proper designation - 2 in the last 2 years. They came back the same grade. I have also sent 2 coins to PCGS that failed to get the FS designation at NGC. These were clear-cut FS nickels, and they got the same grade at PCGS that NGC assigned, and also got the FS designation. Both were ultra-moderns - a 93-D and a 96-D.

 

So, overall, I see a tightening of grades and designation standards with PCGS and overall consistency with NGC as well as between NGC and PCGS. Oh, and I've also had good success at crossing buffalo nickels from one service to the other - ANACS to PCGS as well.

 

So, my hypothesis is that you are getting pickier! That's what one would expect from a seasoned collector, such as yourself. You have probably managed to collect some rather exquisite coins, and most are probably high-end for the grade. And it's what we should all aim for.

 

I take exception to one thing you stated: "Of course, it's known that ebay and teletrade are the junk yards for unwanted coins."

 

I sell on eBay. I'm not a dealer and it's my best conduit to sell coins personally. I know that others on this forum do as well. When I describe a coin for eBay, I tell it like it is. I can't stand hype, but I find it at dealer tables more often than I do on eBay. I also dislike the generality of junk on eBay. I have not only sold there, but I've also bought some great stuff. Granted, I've had to return a few, but nothing that one would expect differently from a sight-unseen transaction. What the hell.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

Hoot

[cladking]

I'm not convinced that all the later date coins exist in high grade, much less high grade and FS.

[spy88]

Leo, I also must agree with Hoot. I think you ARE getting pickier---but as a collector, you have every right to be so! This all goes back to a post about buying the best you can afford, and that still holds true. In the Jeff series, one MUST make choices regarding steps. Given the choice between a 1953-S MS63FS (5 full steps) and a 1953-S MS67 w/5-3-4-4 steps (or any combo) with bridging and step nicks, I would take the 63FS. To me, the steps are more important then strike and grade, unless both are available on the same coin.

 

I personally, do not go for any TGC graded MS-FS Jeffs, so Hoot has the insight on that. I tried once with buying 10 NTC FS Jeffs @ MS66/67. Had to return 8 because they just were NOT FSs. I have been able to find ALL of what I need through various other "sources" in the raw. I can't tell you!!!!

Nyah nyah!!

 

I buy and sell on eBay also. But have been burned more then a few times by sellers touting FS Jeffs that had bridging, nicks, hits, etc. You have to know who knows how to grade them and who does not. This can be very time-consuming but rewarding in the long run.

 

David

[currentcoin]

I saw a 1952-S yesterday PCGS MS66 on the holder.

The coin could not got a MS64 on a good day.

 

Glen

[Leothelion]

OK! I'll admit it! I'm picky! But nontheless, there must be consistency in grading coins! Grading coins must strickly be tied to condition and strike. Luster and toning determines the high end of the grade. Mint state grades 60 to 70 can all have full strikes but when wear is not a factor then it's the number of marks and their locations that should deterimine the grade of a coin. It doesn't get any simplier then that.

When a coin is struck in perfection with no flaws and makes the MS70 grade, where would eye appealing toning move the grade up to? MS71? And if another coin with flaws and eye apealing toning receives a MS70 grade. The population for the perfect coin becomes weightless. And the grading system becomes inconsistent and marketable for common dated coins.

 

Leo

[BillJones]

"Grade-flation" is appearing all over the market. I don't deal in Jefferson Nickels, except for an occasional Proof War Nickel, but I do buy and sell some "classics;" and I see the same thing there. This always happens in hot coin markets. There are not enough good coins available so the services "make" some. When things quiet down, the grading will get tougher to contract the number of good coins if history repeats itself.

 

It's not the way things should be, but it's the way it is.

[Leothelion]

Leo -

 

But then I guess that's why I'm not a coin grader.

 

Hi GDJMSP

But you are a coin grader, especially about the coins for your collection.

I knew you knew that.

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Hoot

Congratulations! You beat me to it!

 

Leo

[Hoot]

[Oldtrader3]

Hoot: I would like to see a scan of your '41-S MS67FS, if you have one. I have some Type MS66FS nickels ('42-D T-1 and '43-S) that I believe are nicer than some of the more recent specimins that I have seen. I guess it is the luck of the draw, since I do not collect Jeffs anymore.

[Leothelion]

"Grade-flation" is appearing all over the market. I don't deal in Jefferson Nickels, except for an occasional Proof War Nickel, but I do buy and sell some "classics;" and I see the same thing there. This always happens in hot coin markets. There are not enough good coins available so the services "make" some. When things quiet down, the grading will get tougher to contract the number of good coins if history repeats itself.

 

It's not the way things should be, but it's the way it is.

 

Bill

You do have a way in summing up my curousity!

Thank you.

 

Leo