There may be an influx of new members.

[BillJones]

In one sense I understand why they forbid political posts over there as well as here. It causes a lot of arguments and rancor. You also see a lot of action from trolls who only looking to start fights for their own enjoyment.

 

On the other hand the tone of this message and the way that it is written got under my skin when I read it the other day. I felt like posting “Sieg Hiel!” (sp) under it, which would have gotten me banned for sure. This Carol person and the so-called “Sports Monitor” are the two policemen who really irritate over there. I am under the impression that “Sports Monitor” does the job for free. If so I’m sure that pulling wings off of flies must be his other avocation.

 

One thing that drives me nuts over here is the prohibition against using the D-word for the Donkey Party and the R-word for the Elephant Party. When I’m posting something about an Abraham Lincoln campaign medalet, it gets tiresome to not be be able to use the proper party names. The last Rebel soldier died in 1959 so the chances of the R-word raising his blood pressure are nil.

 

I also get tired of really stupid censorship software that does not allow you to write down proper names. It gets tiresome to have write Alfred Hitch-spoon for the famous film director and John Han-spoon for the fellow who signed his name in bold letters on the Declaration of Independence. You know that you are off the rails when the British board of film censors allowed Alfred Hitch-spoon to use his real name when he took credit for directing his films.

[CHABSENTIA]

So much for the freedom of speech!! Maybe our wonderful President is running the show over there too.....Oooops..political post!! 30 lashes for the fireman!!!

 

 

Cracks me up something fierce God bless George Carlin....this buds for you!!

 

How Childish.If anybody is Political on here then you are at the top of the list with absurd comments about Fox in other Forums and now the President.

 

Are you really here for Coins or to rant about a Political agenda?

[CHABSENTIA]

While not condoning the draconian censorship policies ATS....

 

Not allowing political posts is not out of the ordinary for Internet forums. Like religion, there's usually not much point in debating the issues, and a whole lot of emotion in the arguments.

 

You make a good point. Look at the earlier post here where this individual makes snide comments about Fox and the President. I am not sure if this individual is the same one who posted erroneous artcle about the Boy Scouts and then gave it as a reason why they wouldn't purchase the Commemorative.

 

Posting Political comments is bad enough but posting Political Comments with no basis of facts is even worse. Sometimes I wonder if they are just immature.Most do not contribute much toward Coins so I have to wonder about their reason/s for being here.

[BillJones]

It’s rudely worded and intentionally so. I’d lose my job if I started writing emails in that tone…

Carol has posted in that tone on other matters in the past and has been at her job for a long time. That should tell you something about whether she has the general blessing of management or not on such matters.

 

Arrogance is a way of life at PCGS. That’s why Carol and the management get along so well. And it's one of the reasons why I have no desire to ever to deal them directly. Of course that means that they get less of my money in the long run.

 

Arrogance comes from the top down. If you wanted to define “arrogance” in a picture dictionary, all you would need would be a picture of David Hall.

[CHABSENTIA]

I can think of no reason why anyone would discuss politics in a coin forum (unless you count insulting Congress for some of the dumb coin-related laws they've come up with recently, and I do that often, even in my set descriptions).

 

True,however, take the case of the Poster who posted an erroneous and misleading article about Congress considering a Coomemorative for the Boy Scouts. This individual did not discuss the possible merits of the coin etc. and did not just post the Legislation but posted an erroneous and misleading article and then commented on Personal reasons etc.

[MTHead-migration]

Why so interesting? It was pinned to the top long enough that the people it was meant for had time to see and read it. If someone who only logs in 1 or 2 times a month missed it and gets bammed because of it then so what. (to them, at least) The object of the post was to warn the people who live and die on the site.

 

I was not aware this had, in fact, been pinned. I was banned nearly 3 years ago but still stop in to read some threads. Once or maybe twice a week.

[Oldtrader3]

I missed carolj's original post ATS until it was posted here. I only go over there once or twice a week because the environment is so toxic over there. The site does not allow people to make political statements but allows rude and crude name calling by the local Troll population. Who are these Trolls? I notice that many of the Trolls have only been members for a year or two and mostly cozy up to the self appointed, "approved sellers", or those who few members who think that they are the center of the universe on the ATS site.

 

BTW, what is the poster rating system ATS supposed to represent? Is (1) high or (10)? Does anyone here know? Just curious.

[MTHead-migration]

The rating system was never clarified when I was there. Was 1 the highest? Was 10 the highest? Arguments were advanced for each but nothing was ever resolved. No football team shouts "We're Number 10!" , but Bo Derek was no 1.

I found that I was rating people more to mess up perfect 1's or 10's than to actually pass a numerical judgement on them.

[BillJones]

I missed carolj's original post ATS until it was posted here. I only go over there once or twice a week because the environment is so toxic over there. The site does not allow people to make political statements but allows rude and crude name calling by the local Troll population. Who are these Trolls? I notice that many of the Trolls have only been members for a year or two and mostly cozy up to the self appointed, "approved sellers", or those who few members who think that they are the center of the universe on the ATS site.

 

BTW, what is the poster rating system ATS supposed to represent? Is (1) high or (10)? Does anyone here know? Just curious.

 

Yes, I found the atmosphere over there to be toxic also.

 

It rained all weekend here in Florida, which is unusual. It is the rainy season, but that usually means showers, not a wash out like it was on Saturday and a good part of Sunday.

 

At any rate that left me more time to fool with the computer. I went over and posted more than one message across the street for the first time in many months. I started to run across a few names over there, that I had really come to despise. I’d forgotten about those people until then. It’s much better over here. People are a lot more civil and really interested in the hobby. They also have fewer axes to grind, and fewer pet coins to promote for personal financial gain.

 

The ownership, the attitudes, the monitors and a few of the people who post over there make whole thing less than fun.

[lehigh96]

It’s rudely worded and intentionally so. I’d lose my job if I started writing emails in that tone…

Carol has posted in that tone on other matters in the past and has been at her job for a long time. That should tell you something about whether she has the general blessing of management or not on such matters.

 

So which one is it. Was she instructed to give that message, or is this par for the course. I would not doubt that she has blanket authority to run the board given the tone and content of the message. Either way, her post was insulting and unacceptable. As the moderator, it is her job to remain professional. Her post made me think she was one of the board members. Furthermore, anyone in that company who would condone or instruct such a post should also join the line at the unemployment office. However, I disagree that she has managements blessing. What I believe is that she was given authority to run the boards without supervision. Once someone complains, and upper management sees what she is doing, I bet her tone will change quickly.

[WoodenJefferson]

So, in essence, had this entire post appeared as is ATS, every contributor (including me) to the thread would be more or less ceremoniously axed?

 

Would the mods let the body count run up to say 100 or nuke it as soon as it was spotted?

 

 

 

[gmarguli]

What I believe is that she was given authority to run the boards without supervision. Once someone complains, and upper management sees what she is doing, I bet her tone will change quickly.

 

I bet it won't. I suspect that if you called Ron or David right now and mentioned the post, at least one of them would be aware of it and in favor of it.

 

Personally, I'm not offended by the tone of that post. It sets the guidelines very clearly - which is something that PCGS is rare in doing. Too bad that based on history, they will not actually follow the guidelines. I've seen notice being given of sig picture size limitations several times in the past with "banned without warning" consequences. However, people continue to ignore these and I can't recall anyone being banned over it.

[MarkFeld]

What I believe is that she was given authority to run the boards without supervision. Once someone complains, and upper management sees what she is doing, I bet her tone will change quickly.

 

I bet it won't. I suspect that if you called Ron or David right now and mentioned the post, at least one of them would be aware of it and in favor of it.

 

Personally, I'm not offended by the tone of that post. It sets the guidelines very clearly - which is something that PCGS is rare in doing. Too bad that based on history, they will not actually follow the guidelines. I've seen notice being given of sig picture size limitations several times in the past with "banned without warning" consequences. However, people continue to ignore these and I can't recall anyone being banned over it.

Ditto on all counts.

[lehigh96]

What I believe is that she was given authority to run the boards without supervision. Once someone complains, and upper management sees what she is doing, I bet her tone will change quickly.

 

I bet it won't. I suspect that if you called Ron or David right now and mentioned the post, at least one of them would be aware of it and in favor of it.

 

Personally, I'm not offended by the tone of that post. It sets the guidelines very clearly - which is something that PCGS is rare in doing. Too bad that based on history, they will not actually follow the guidelines. I've seen notice being given of sig picture size limitations several times in the past with "banned without warning" consequences. However, people continue to ignore these and I can't recall anyone being banned over it.

 

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable.

[okbustchaser]

IMO, very little if any business will be lost by the policy warning of this post. In fact, if it were actually enforced (which like others above I doubt) it could even result in happier prospective customers who no longer have to wade through all the .

[lehigh96]

IMO, very little if any business will be lost by the policy warning of this post. In fact, if it were actually enforced (which like others above I doubt) it could even result in happier prospective customers who no longer have to wade through all the .

 

I don't think the post itself will lose customers. It is the underlying principle that customers are not important that will cause them to lose business. If they don't intend to actually follow through with the banning threat and the post was simply a scare tactic, then I agree they will not lose customers. However, that does not mean that the situation was handled professionally or in a manner that promotes a positive image for their business. As far as wading through the , it appears to me that the is what members ATS actually enjoy. They like controversy, name calling, and juicy threads rather than intelligent discussion of numismatic topics IMO.

[gmarguli]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable.

 

Actually, losing certain customers can be a good business practice. It can be wise to refuse to do business with certain customers who require too much of your time based on revenue generated. It's picking which ones you can do without that is the hard part.

 

How much do you think the average forum member contributes to the PCGS (or NGC) coffers? I suspect very little individually. Most of the posts I've read about submissions are small quantity submissions of low revenue tier (modern, economy) coins. Many of the people who post on the forums have never submitted a coin and will not likely be a large revenue client for the TPG ever.

 

I'm pretty sure that the 80/20 theory of business (80% revenue comes from 20% of your customers) works for the TPG also. How many of these forum members do you think would make it into the top 20%? I suspect very few (I can only think of one without a doubt and 3 possibles).

 

Also, having very recently spoken with someone at PCGS about forum topics, I can assure you that management is aware of a lot of what is going on on the forums.

[ldhair]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable

Sorry but that's not the way it is. I don't even feel many were offended.

[TomB]

My experiences with Carol have been nothing but positive and I have found her to be knowledgeable, prompt and courteous on each occasion. I believe Carol has much more to do at PCGS than to simply moderate the message boards and I don't think she actively reads the boards all that much at this time. Her thread, in my opinion, was not in any manner impolite, but rather was direct and clear. PCGS will lose little, if any, business from the position that she outlined and, in fact, might gain business since this new thread was likely posted in response to complaints by other members who are tired of the aggressive trolling activity on the PCGS boards.

 

Personally, I like the PCGS boards very much and read them as often as I read the NGC boards. I also post on both boards regularly, learn things from both boards, have made friendships through both boards and have established a list of those folks who I am better off not knowing by simply reading their posts.

[lehigh96]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable

Sorry but that's not the way it is. I don't even feel many were offended.

 

You are right, they will only be offended if they get kicked off the board. Think of it this way guys. If ANACS had a board, would their moderator ever offer up such a post. The only reason PCGS can act this way towards their customers is because they are presently on top in the market. It is that type of thinking that will quickly make you number 2.

 

 

[gmarguli]

The only reason PCGS can act this way towards their customers is because they are presently on top in the market. It is that type of thinking that will quickly make you number 2.

 

Actually, NGC is pretty much kicking their . PCGS is not on top.

[TomB]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable

Sorry but that's not the way it is. I don't even feel many were offended.

 

You are right, they will only be offended if they get kicked off the board. Think of it this way guys. If ANACS had a board, would their moderator ever offer up such a post. The only reason PCGS can act this way towards their customers is because they are presently on top in the market. It is that type of thinking that will quickly make you number 2.

I don't know that I can entirely agree with the logic that PCGS might quickly fall in its prestige due to a post such as that currently posted by Carol. The PCGS boards have been around for about a decade and there have been a number of rude threads or posts authored by David Hall over that period of time, yet the boards and PCGS are still going strong. Additionally, although I strongly believe that PCGS gets some submissions through the boards, I don't believe they use it as a funnel for their grading business. Many people post actively on the boards, but do not submit coins for grading. Others realize that the market might favor the PCGS plastic within a certain niche and are not likely to reduce their profits because of a thread.

[WinstonWare]

...have made friendships through both boards and have established a list of those folks who I am better off not knowing by simply reading their posts.

 

 

How much do you think the average forum member contributes to the PCGS (or NGC) coffers? I suspect very little individually. Most of the posts I've read about submissions are small quantity submissions of low revenue tier (modern, economy) coins. Many of the people who post on the forums have never submitted a coin and will not likely be a large revenue client for the TPG ever.

I’m sure you're right Greg but how many forum members, and particularly PCGS forum members, are buying the PCGS name? They may not directly submit coins but they buy and own coins in PCGS plastic. Submitters are not only submitting coins for themselves but for the market…

 

 

In any event it appears that Carol’s initial post has been edited since I first remarked on it. My sense was that it was unnecessarily and intentionally brusk; as though she were tired of dealing with customers and wanted to make it known to them.

[pendragon1998]

I wonder if having one of these avatars (which I whipped together from googled images) would get you booted ATS?

 

Use them if you dare! 75x75 pixel and 100x100 pixel versions for your viewing pleasure.

[WoodenJefferson]

<>

 

Remember the one where HomeRunHall said you needed to be "thick skinned" to hang around the CU boards?

[lehigh96]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable

Sorry but that's not the way it is. I don't even feel many were offended.

 

You are right, they will only be offended if they get kicked off the board. Think of it this way guys. If ANACS had a board, would their moderator ever offer up such a post. The only reason PCGS can act this way towards their customers is because they are presently on top in the market. It is that type of thinking that will quickly make you number 2.

I don't know that I can entirely agree with the logic that PCGS might quickly fall in its prestige due to a post such as that currently posted by Carol. The PCGS boards have been around for about a decade and there have been a number of rude threads or posts authored by David Hall over that period of time, yet the boards and PCGS are still going strong. Additionally, although I strongly believe that PCGS gets some submissions through the boards, I don't believe they use it as a funnel for their grading business. Many people post actively on the boards, but do not submit coins for grading. Others realize that the market might favor the PCGS plastic within a certain niche and are not likely to reduce their profits because of a thread.

 

Tom,

 

I don't think that the one post will hurt their business, it is the underlying principle that they don't care about their customers that will hurt their business. But like I said before, if they do this frequently and then don't enforce it, there will be no negative impact. However, IMO, the post was still unprofessional. We will just have to agree to disagree about that. I think the same point could have been made in a much nicer and courteous fashion. If I had sent a similar e-mail to my customers in my business, I would be unemployed. But then again, I work in the casino business and we don't sell anything, we just take your money, so we have to be nice. As far as board members that make submissions, you and Greg are most likely right that most do not make submissions. But they all buy coins. If I were kicked off a chat board for something trivial, I am sure it would affect my decision to buy coins graded by that company. Again, it is not a specific incident that will hurt them, it is their overall approach towards there customers that I am referring to. If her post was an indicator of that, which seems to be mild compared to others abover her according to you guys, that is a problem.

[CHABSENTIA]

So you actually advocate losing customers as a good business practice. That is very interesting. Like it or not, PCGS is a business. Like it or not, the board members are either customers or potential customers of their business. Offending your board members will result in lost business. If the present management actually approves of this business practice, the whole group will be out of a job once the company starts losing revenue, which in the long run is inevitable.

 

Actually, losing certain customers can be a good business practice. It can be wise to refuse to do business with certain customers who require too much of your time based on revenue generated. It's picking which ones you can do without that is the hard part.

 

How much do you think the average forum member contributes to the PCGS (or NGC) coffers? I suspect very little individually. Most of the posts I've read about submissions are small quantity submissions of low revenue tier (modern, economy) coins. Many of the people who post on the forums have never submitted a coin and will not likely be a large revenue client for the TPG ever.

 

I'm pretty sure that the 80/20 theory of business (80% revenue comes from 20% of your customers) works for the TPG also. How many of these forum members do you think would make it into the top 20%? I suspect very few (I can only think of one without a doubt and 3 possibles).

 

Also, having very recently spoken with someone at PCGS about forum topics, I can assure you that management is aware of a lot of what is going on on the forums.

 

Seems a little arrogant. What are the standards for low revenue. My latest submission is Modern Coins as I have finished my Morgans for various reasons. Only five this time but one of them has a Numismedia Value of $400.00 and one has a Numismedia value of $350.00 and the total of all five is over a thousand dollars.

 

Now we are not true Collectors unless we collect coins that are only worth a certain amount of Money and they are non Modern Coins? It isn't significant unless people also submit a certain number of coins at one time?

 

 

I do not go ATS at all so any posts that I read from there are because Members here have reposted them here.I see nothing wrong with her wording and don't see any unreasonable tone in her post as it was copied here. It was to the point and described the boundaries. I can't comment on any other posts of hers because I don't go ATS.

 

I get a little tired of reading through some of these posts because of a title that might interests me and see comments such as "its the fault of the President". "You must listen to Fox' and I won't purchase a Commemorative for the Boy Scouts because they dont accept.......... etc

 

These are not to the issue and contribute nothing to either Coin Collecting or the Economy.At least people sending in Moderns of low value and those who make comments about an aspect of Coin Collecting are making a contribution.The former have nothing to offer and are using it as a Forum for inane and childish views.

[gmarguli]

Seems a little arrogant. What are the standards for low revenue. My latest submission is Modern Coins as I have finished my Morgans for various reasons. Only five this time but one of them has a Numismedia Value of $400.00 and one has a Numismedia value of $350.00 and the total of all five is over a thousand dollars.

 

Now we are not true Collectors unless we collect coins that are only worth a certain amount of Money and they are non Modern Coins? It isn't significant unless people also submit a certain number of coins at one time?

 

It's not arrogant at all. And not a single word was spoken about being a "true collector" based on the dollar value of the coin submitted. It's just basic business math. The TPG probably do not make much money on the lower cost submissions (excluding bulk). Someone submitting 25 modern coins is only generating a couple hundred in revenue for the TPG. About the same as someone submitting 5 Express submissions. It takes a significantly larger quantity of modern coins to equal the revenue/profit of a couple more expensive tier coins.

 

I do not know where each TPG would draw the line at low revenue customer vs. a "special" customer. However, I know without a doubt that every TPG and business does draw this line and is more concerned with attracting/retaining the "special" customers than the infrequent submitters. They'd be foolish not to.

 

Most of the forum members appear to be submitting coins at the modern or economy levels. It can take a lot of these coins in order to generate significant revenues. Excluding a couple of dealers who participate mainly on the Registry forum and do larger bulk submissions, few of these forum members ever talk about submissions over 50 coins and most seem to be 15 coins or less.

 

If you take a look at the Shared Orders page at PCGS - which I assume is mainly forum members, you'll see the average submission is not a lot of coins. In this case the company probably feels pretty secure in knowing that if they choose to lose a forum member/customer it won't hurt them much. Like I said before, it's picking which ones you can do without that is the hard part. One day you might be unceremoniously dumped from the forums, but a few years later you might have multiple representatives of that very same company repeatedly approaching you at shows and wanting to put the ugliness of the past in the past and start working together. Funny how life/business works.

[Jeffrey Cardona]

So much for the freedom of speech!! Maybe our wonderful President is running the show over there too.....Oooops..political post!! 30 lashes for the fireman!!!

 

 

Cracks me up something fierce God bless George Carlin....this buds for you!!

 

How Childish.If anybody is Political on here then you are at the top of the list with absurd comments about Fox in other Forums and now the President.

 

Are you really here for Coins or to rant about a Political agenda?

 

My apologies to anyone if I have offended them....it just seemed to me that the post was taking a turn into the "way too serious" area. Just wanted to lightin' it up a bit. And I was thinking about the great George Carlin and what was lost with his passing, and at the time of my orginal post, how he would respond.

 

Life is too short to get upset about a post or chat board.

 

Please don't take life too seriously.....just live it seriously!!

[Oldtrader3]

I think maybe Greg missed the point that we also are paying (!) for the honor of submitting coins to both NGC/PCGS and for being members of their forums. In the case of NGC, we are also getting (5) grading certificates. In the case of PCGS, we get nothing in return except a useless code book and the honor (?) of direct submission. So, PCGS gets $50/year/member for doing essentially nothing. This is pretty good revenue for the service that PCGS provides.