I actually got another one!

[glenashley-migration]

I got another NGC PF70 Statehood Quarter where the label doesn't match the coin. This time it is a 2000 Silver MASSACHUSETTS with a 2005 CALIFORNIA! Wow! Not two weeks ago I got a MINNESOTA with a COLORADO in the slab. Who watches these things when they label them?? Sheeesh!

[kryptonitecomics]

Mechanical errors are going to happen....it's just par for the course no matter how careful they are. They slab thousands of coins per month so if only a couple get through....and you find them......it's going to make it seem like a lack of quality control.

 

 

Where you the submitter?

[glenashley-migration]

I understand the logistics involved with the slabbing of thousands of coins. My deal is that NGC goes to great lengths to certify coins only for them to be mislabeled in the final step. That is unfortunate since the final step is essentially the presentation step. They are putting their name and reputation on that certified coin. Why not make sure that they are putting their name and reputation on a properly labeled coin? I am seeing PCGS start to push their advertising regarding their superior service. I personally don't care for PCGS slabs but it is simply a personal preference on my part. I feel that NGC is the preferred grading company and that is why I only collect NGC slabs. So I guess I have higher expectations from them.

 

And no I did not submit, although I purchased from Ebay I purchased from the same seller who I assume is the submitter. He has mentioned that he gets quite a few like this. He normally sells them as some sort of error or something.

 

Anyway, I am just venting a little. I just expect more from NGC.

 

 

[PerryHall]

If the put down the wrong state, how can we be so sure they didn't put down the wrong grade?

[kryptonitecomics]

There's nothing wrong with your expections.....they should be perfect even if that's a pipe dream....so I hear what your saying.....just pointing out the logistics of grading that many coins with a few slipping through the cracks. Others have complained on the boards so I know it happens......but knock on wood......it has never happen to me and I have submitted about 250 coins in the last few months. I will say that none of them were ultra modern high grade coins so maybe they don't take as much time on those......just me speculating and I am sure they would disagree

[Muleman]

Its like PCGS with paper currency. Might not be as dramatic but they use a 70 pt system like the coin graders and PMG paper grading and I got a note with the grade Fine -88 grade. Got me thinking where do they even come up with 88. Errors do happen. I wonder if PMG would cross grade the note as a PCGS error.

[Keleum]

WOW!!! An 88 on a 70 point scale. Talk about your top pop..

 

Geez, how many points is that for a registry set.

[Muleman]

Probably in a registry set be only taken as a F12 but cool to have in a collection . Ill see if I can do scans of that one

[Schatzy]

Quality Control------Graded and encapsulated coins are re-examined by a grader to make certain that their labels are correct for both the grade and its accompanying descriptive information. He also inspects each coin for any flaws on its holder, such as scuffs or nicks.

 

Your coins must have missed quality control. The say they check the labels over again but I guess they forgot about yours.

[kryptonitecomics]

Quality Control------Graded and encapsulated coins are re-examined by a grader to make certain that their labels are correct for both the grade and its accompanying descriptive information. He also inspects each coin for any flaws on its holder, such as scuffs or nicks.

 

Your coins must have missed quality control. The say they check the labels over again but I guess they forgot about yours.

 

I have to agree........the errors you posted were very easy to spot.

[cpm9ball]

They are putting their name and reputation on that certified coin.

 

They are human just like the rest of us. Mistakes will happen. Be thankful that they make every effort to correct the mistakes they can and learn from the mistakes they can't.

 

Chris

[Schatzy]

To me the those mislabels are totally uncalled for. Anybody and some one should have spotted that error. It even says what quarter it is just by looking at the quarter.

 

To me that wasn't a mistake some one never even looked at the coin again after it was labeled!!

[Schatzy]

Check this one out!!

I can see how they label errored this coin but not the state quarters.

Link to the Coin!!

[Revenant]

There's at least one problem with the arguement that everyone is making. There probably isn't a HUGE staff of these label checkers and they probably have to go through a ton of these things a hour to keep pace with the flow of coins to avoid a process bottleneck.

 

My mother had a roll of Delaware quarters that she had saved away. She was only looking at the rider on the horse and asking me if those were Texas quarters because she was thinking that a rider and a horse were on the Texas quarter. I had to show her the quarters in my album to resolve the issue (the state name was covered by the roll). My point? There are about 50 statehood designs; there will eventually be 56. It can be hard to keep them all straight. If you're just taking a quick glance, it wouldn't be hard for this to happen.

[just-john]

when you only look at a coin for less than 3 seconds mistakes can happen and I think they do 10s of thousands per month

[glenashley-migration]

Wow! I didn't expect this much notice of my little rant... lot's of good info here. Just to update you on the situation. After emailing the seller (again this is the second mislabel I have received from him) he is sending me a replacement. A very conscientious seller to say the least. He even told me to keep the coin at no cost!

 

He said he checked the coins that he has left, and there were 2 more mislabels in that stack. He has told me before that he gets about 12 to 15 of these out of every shipment. This guy is a pretty big seller on Ebay and I am guessing that he also sells face to face as well. So who knows how many slabs he gets from NGC? But 12 to 15 mislabels? If he gets a shipment of 100 coins a month, that is 12% to 15%! If he gets 1000 coins a month that is still 1% to 1.5% in errors. Even by taking the 1% margin and multiplying that by the 'tens of thousands' of coins that must be checked, they are mislabeling 100 to 150 coins for every 10,000 coins checked and still shipping them mislabeled. That's still pretty high in my opinion.

 

I worked for the Postal Service for many, many years. We had goals to meet every day in regard to how much mail was worked each shift as well as correct delivery. This goal was normally given in a percentage form. In processing this number would be something like 89 or 91. In other words, today we are going to work for 91% of all mail worked to be correctly sorted. Why not work for 100% accuracy? Nope we worked to get less than 100%. And we worked hard to get to that 91% too. Could we have achieved 100%? Maybe, but we will never know, because we never had to try to achieve it. So what is the point? If NGC knows there is a problem no matter how insignificant, they should address it in some way. They should work for THAT 100% accuracy in the labeling of each and every coin. Especially in the sense of shipping mislabeled slabs. The shipping of a mislabeled coin to their customer places NGC's reputation on a shaky foundation. We want to feel that their grade is correct for that particular coin, but how sure can we be when the MASSACHUSETTS labeled slab holds a CALIFORNIA coin? What will that do to the value of my other NGC graded coins? We trust that NGC will grade our precious coinage accurately so why not trust them to complete the job and label it correctly?

 

Okay the preaching is done, but I'm going to pass the offering plate before I step away from the podium.

 

Go in PEACE and Y'all have a great one!

 

[kryptonitecomics]

It would seem impossible that all of his shipments miss quality control so it sounds like there is a problem............wonder what NGC would say about this customers continuing experience....I assume he has been in contact with them?

[Revenant]

You're taking a pretty bold step in 1) assuming you know what kind of volume he deals with and 2) assuming he wasn't overstating the issue. Even so, your example only persues a 91% success rate. Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to accomplish even 98% on an industrial scale? And 100%, that's just silly. Mistakes happen. Get over it.

 

 

[glenashley-migration]

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to accomplish even 98% on an industrial scale? And 100%, that's just silly. Mistakes happen. Get over it.

 

 

Revenant, my point in the 100% analogy was not that 100% was achievable but rather why not work towards achieving it. We were told to work towards 91% or 89% or 83%. It just makes sense to work toward perfection rather than work towards 'not quite but almost' perfection.

 

You say get over it. Let's consider this. Let's say the coin you just sent in to be graded fell short of the PF70 you had hoped for. Let's say it was a PF69. But the coin is in a mislabeled slab. All the folks you showed the coin to before sending it in to be graded were sure that it would grade a 70. They were professionals in the business with years and years of experience. But it still comes back a 69, close but no cigar. Because of the labeling error just how sure are you that the grading is justified and correct? Does that small mistake in the labeling give you a warm fuzzy with regard to the grading? I for one would not think so. But that is just me I guess. You are obviously the one here with the most experience. Heck compared to me, everyone here has some sort of experience in the registered coin market. Anyway, in regards to our coins. We would like to have the most perfect example of what ever coin we collect. So wouldn't it be in the grading company's best interest to make sure that perfect PF70 coin was labeled correctly before shipping it to the customer? I know mistakes happen, and God knows I make a ton of them every day. (remember my grand mistake with the 2008 Reverse Eagle but turned out the coin was a 2007?) But when you are in the trade of grading the perfection of an item. It makes sense to try to achieve perfection in the whole process. Is 100% achievable in the volume NGC deals with? No, but if it is only 1% that is still a lot of mistakes.

 

Definitely a point to consider and discuss with our peers. Thanks for your insight.

 

Oh and one more thought Revenant. I looked at your American Eagle Set... very nice.

[glenashley-migration]

It would seem impossible that all of his shipments miss quality control so it sounds like there is a problem............wonder what NGC would say about this customers continuing experience....I assume he has been in contact with them?

 

To answer your question... I have no idea whether he attempts to contact NGC on the problem or not. I know he doesn't want them back. I offered to send the coin back so he could have it corrected. He stated that they won't assume responsibility for the cost of postage to send it in. Personally I would think that would be a small price to pay for a coin that is in such demand.

[Revenant]

I'm sorry if I got a little grumpy there but I just don't understand why you take such issue with this since NGC has a mechanism for fixing it. The label is wrong? They'll reholder it for free. You think the grade is wrong? You can submit for an appearance review for free.

 

I don't have the most experience with graded coins. I'm one of the youngest here and I've only been collecting for about 2 years, certified coins for 1 year. However, I do know about production, design, tolerance and acceptable failure rates. As you reduce tolerance and reduce failure rates the expense can begin to increase exponentially after 90-95%. From a business perspective it is often times better to allow mistakes to happen while providing a good mechanism to correct the mistake than to double the cost of your service while still having to provide a way to fix errors because errors will still happen. Think about it this way. Do you want to pay a $30 fee (as opposed to $12.5 I think) to get a modern coin graded just so NGC can have a beefed up QC department and you can have FEWER errors, not NO errors, just FEWER of them?

 

This topic is bringing my grump out. I'm not even sure why...

[MorganMan]

As you reduce tolerance and reduce failure rates the expense can begin to increase exponentially after 90-95%.

 

 

In my opinion. even a 5% failure rate is too high in coin grading or pacemaker production. Both are "high precision" fields so to speak.......

 

Now, I would expect this kind of failure rate on chinese made pool floats or something like that.....

 

 

If they miss something that easy, then I wonder if they are gonna miss on that MS65 coin worth $500 that is really an MS66 worth $ 3000

 

MM

 

 

[Revenant]

As you reduce tolerance and reduce failure rates the expense can begin to increase exponentially after 90-95%.

 

 

In my opinion. even a 5% failure rate is too high in coin grading or pacemaker production. Both are "high precision" fields so to speak.......

 

Now, I would expect this kind of failure rate on chinese made pool floats or something like that.....

 

 

MM

 

 

Now that's just not fair. Of course the pacemakers are built to higher standards than other things and some things can be tested through automated processes to make sure they're performing within tolerance before being sent out. However, it's harder to have a purely automated process for checking a label and anytime you're relying on people you have to allow for a higher error rate. 90-95% was an example. Even so, I'd give NGC a real "pat on the back" if they achieved 99% with consistency.

 

Ever wonder why Bic pens are so cheap?

[PerryHall]

Take it to a major show where NGC is set up and they will reholder it for you. Or you can sell it on eBay as a major slabbing error. People collect these things like they collect error coins and they usually pay a premium for the error.

[ant]

Take it to a major show where NGC is set up and they will reholder it for you. Or you can sell it on eBay as a major slabbing error. People collect these things like they collect error coins and they usually pay a premium for the error.

 

(thumbs u

[glenashley-migration]

Take it to a major show where NGC is set up and they will reholder it for you. Or you can sell it on eBay as a major slabbing error. People collect these things like they collect error coins and they usually pay a premium for the error.

 

(thumbs u

 

Thanks for the great discussion. My whole premise wasn't to put NGC down for an obvious mistake. Rather I wanted to discuss the ramifications of how such a simple error reflected on their reputation as a superior grader. I have to say you guys don't disappoint! Great advice and lots of good discussion. Rev... sorry if this brought the 'GRUMP' out in you. You brought out some very good points. I respect your opinions and even though you say you are one of the newest here, your thoughts carry weight. I can always respect that.

 

Perry, I am going to do just what you suggest. A MASSACHUSETTS/CALIFORNIA PF70 on Ebay very soon! (thumbs u

 

Well it is 6 something in the AM and I am going for the caffeine.

 

PEACE my peeps!

[kryptonitecomics]

As you reduce tolerance and reduce failure rates the expense can begin to increase exponentially after 90-95%.

 

 

In my opinion. even a 5% failure rate is too high in coin grading or pacemaker production. Both are "high precision" fields so to speak.......

 

Now, I would expect this kind of failure rate on chinese made pool floats or something like that.....

 

 

For the record...I have purchased at least 20 chinese pool floats in the last few years and all have met mine and my kids expectations

 

 

lol

[Oldtrader3]

Actually, NGC can control labeling errors. It just requires product handler certification, procedures and a "traveler ticket" that goes through the process with the coin and is bar code scanned and visually verified each time the coin is handled by a human. How do you think Medical Device Companies make 3 billion widgets a year with no (!) label errors. Controls, sytems, training, certification and verification, that's how. It is stupid for NGC or PCGS to mislabel when it is so easy to fix. They need to advance out of the caveman era into sytemized batch control! Duh!

[just-john]

so if the label doesn't match the coin it's not rare and should have know extra value ?