I was going to finally get my NGC membership, but I found this...

[spy88]

Link fixed on first one.

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198699336

 

David

[TonerGuy]

John

 

I realize what you were saying and that was exactly my point. It isn't if he was happy with them. No one should be happy about them. I am certainly not happy that we have yet several more coins ruined for future generations.

 

It is that attitude that allows sellers such as this to continue selling. Without demand there would be no supply. So for those of you that say, "gee, it's my money and I think they're pretty so why should anyone else care, I'm buying that coin." -- think again. It is exactly that attitude that sucks more and more people into buying these POS and hence creates a market for these and thus results in more ruined coins.

 

These aren't colorized JFKs or ASEs with the face of Elvis or some dead NASCAR driver on 1 side. These coins are classic rarities. Everyone knows what they are buying with that, but if you buy one of these AT POS off Ebay and figure "well, I like it, I'll post some positive feedback." the next newbie will figure they are real and buy these POS as well.

 

John I'm not trying to get personal and I know that you didn't mean any harm by your post, and I'm not trying to attack you, I just have some strong feelings about this subject. And no, I've never bought any of these types of coins off Ebay, I just think that doctors, whether small or well heeled are scumbags and should be stopped.

 

Michael

 

 

[Wihlborg]

Michael,

 

I don’t think you are getting personal, I also understood were you were coming from in your first post, and as a matter of fact I could not agree more with your feelings on this matter. I just wanted to clarify my statement so it might not be confused as condoning AT coins. I think the problem is as you stated, but you can’t tell someone else how to spend his or her money. If they buy these coins because they like the colors and don’t care if it is AT or not, than in their minds they got their moneys worth. It is very hard to argue with someone that they should not have bought a coin for whatever reason, no matter how valid that reason my be if they are happy with it no matter what. They may change their mind when it comes time to sell the coin though!

 

John

 

[TomB]

This is the first that I have seen this thread as I have been at a show in NJ all day and just got home. In my opinion, based upon the images only, there is absolutely no chance that either the Pilgrim or the Lincoln halves are original. Again, please take that on the fact that I have not examined the coins in hand, however, I have made this my niche of specialization for many years and I have never, ever seen a coin tone in that manner without being intentionally toned over a short period of time. The toning on each of those pieces looks similar to what can be achieved by using liver of sulfur. Also, this color scheme is not what is typically seen on a Wayte Raymond toned coin. There are too many pastels on the coin, the blue is too shocking, the pink too pure, the centers have the prototypical liver of sulfur look and the colors blend in an odd, unappealing fashion.

 

At this point in time, you may think the coins attractive, but, at some point you will likely realize that the colors were probably put there over a short period of time and with only the intention to deceive. When this happens, and you try to sell the coins, you will receive cents on the dollar unless you try to unload them off via ebay to someone who does not know better. Also, accelerated toning like this is usually not nearly as stable as natural toning and what happens is that the colors darken and become muddied with more frequency than with naturally toned coins.

 

Lastly, and this is purely opinion, but, I doubt that any of these coins came from what you or I would call an "estate". They were likely bought as white sliders and toned quickly to make money of less knowledgable buyers.

 

Again, take this for what it is worth since I have not examined the coins closely, but, I have complete confidence that they have been tampered with in an extreme manner as long as the images are accurate. Sorry.

[spy88]

Everyone, please see my original post under Roberts at the top. It has been edited with another pic and question. Thanks everyone!

 

David

[Wihlborg]

P.S. If all of you agree that these are AT, (and I DO believe you), then should I hope to be outbid on this one?

 

 

IMO, Yes.

 

John

[MAULEMALL]

P.S. If all of you agree that these are AT, (and I DO believe you), then should I hope to be outbid on this one?

 

 

IMO, Yes.

 

John

Most Def.....Retract your Bids.

The guy is obviously not someone you want to do buisness with.

[spy88]

Thank you, MAULEMALL and John. The auction pages for ALL the ones I bought do not list a return policy, however, their home page does. "5 day NQA return so long as in original holder. Will not take back certified slabbed coins, mint or proof sets".

 

I WILL return these doctored coins AFTER I have taken GOOD pictures of them and post them for everyone to see. Maybe it will help someone else not get caught up in the AT of a coin. It really is a shame as I really like them but I DO have better things to do with my money then spend on "graffitied" coins, especially if they will not realize a return on investment without question from a potential buyer.

 

Thank you everyone. A learning experience I am glad I shared with you! It isn't hard to see the difference between AT and NT, now that I have seen the light!

 

David

[Hoot]

Fair enough, John, but the chemical part of it, according to Hoot and 291fifth (Wayte Raymond holders post), the sulfur in the original holders could cause this kind of toning. Granted, they all look similar tone-wise, but is it in the realm of impossibility that that is NOT what happened?

 

Maybe I sound like I am trying to justify my purchase, and honestly, maybe I am.

But the toning was the attraction (eye appeal) that first got me to notice them. The coin itself, based on the pics condition, was primary, at least for the purchases. They are in excellent condition. That is hard to fake even with software. And why go to the trouble if they know the buyer will probably return for refund if not as advertised?

 

I apologize for constantly getting in the last word, but this is like a conversation we are having. And I am LEARNING from you by asking questions and getting responses. That is one of the main reasons I am here!

 

David

 

David - this is what I said in your Wayte Raymond thread:

 

What do you want to know?

 

There's a good bit of history associated with these. Dave Lange knows a lot about that history. They are reputed to have a high sulfer content that imparts superlative toning/color to the coins under the right conditions.

 

Hoot

 

The Pilgrim and Lincoln coins that you linked from eBay are AT. Wayte Raymond hodlers do not impart toning in the way that those coins show in your eBay links. Wayte Raymond toning has tight concentric bands of color and do not show the broad bands of blues, purples and greens that the coins on eBay show. Also, you can have coins side-by-side in the WR albums and they will tone differently due to the metallic composition differences in the coins themselves. (BTW, some coins from WR albums can be butt ugly brown and mottled). The coins that you linked are all the same, except for the OT. That coin was a mess in terms of its toning, IMO. I don't want to insult you in any way. If you liked the way the coins looked and could justify the prices paid, then you've done well by yourself. That does not change the fact that the coins are AT.

 

The GWC and Columian Expo halves look original, but "Estate" coins are usually AU or worse, e.g., whizzed. The GWC looks like it may have original toning, but I'd never buy such a coin without seeing it first in person. The Columbian looks dipped and retoned, but one cannot easily tell, even if the coin is in-hand. I hope you pass on those pieces.

 

Hoot

[RGT]

 

Hey mommam give us a link to your Pilgrim. I gotta see it. I got the commem crazies this week.

I bought in the last week or so:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3053545677

 

Rob,

 

Let me know how you like that Long Island when it arrives. I won that coin about a month ago and returned it. You won't have to worry about any AT on that one. In fact you might want to put on some sunglasses before you open the package. I like a little mellowing at least on my white coins. That one looked dipped and polished to me. Maybe not polished but it sure is shiny. I don't know what a Long Island is supposed to look like and maybe they are all that way.

 

Anyway, I won the coin for about $9 less than you did. I spent about $10 for two way shipping. The guy sells it again for $9 more and doesn't offer to split the extra profit with me.

 

Maybe your tastes are different than mine and you will like it. Those other commems looked pretty nice though (from the images, I didn't return those too )

 

[RobertB]

I'll let you know when it gets here. If it's as bright as you say I'll love it. I love pure white shiners. Occasionally I'll take interest in satiny white pieces but blazing is my favorite (did you notice the pattern in my purchases).

As far as Long Islands go they can have that polished look. They have little in the way of minute details on either obverse or reverse and they definitely do not have that grainy look several of the early commem.s do.

Can't wait though. I got a pick up slip from the post office today for the Maine and Robinson!!! hehe

[RGT]

You will probably love it then. I didn't. I just started collecting Commems a year ago and that was the first Long Island I had. I just don't like that look. I don't need monster toning, but I do like it to look original with some subtle toning at least. That one looked like a hub cap to me.

 

I did pick up a Lynchburg and a Main yesterday on ebay. I'm a bit worried the Lynchburg may be too white, but I got it at a decent price. The Maine had such a tiny picture it was a long shot but came cheap. Both in NGC slabs. Coin gambling is cheaper than a trip to Vegas and often pays off better too.