Question About BN, RB, and RD Designation for Copper

[astrostu]

I know what they stand for - brown, red-brown, and red - but I don't know exactly what they mean in terms of color, or at least the RB vs. RD.

 

BN I've got down - it's your run-of-the-mill copper coin, basically what you'll find in bank rolls if the coin is more than 30-40 years old.

 

Now, what about RB vs. RD. Does RD explicitly mean ONLY "original" color, with absolutely no toning what-so-ever? Or can it mean mostly red surfaces - especially fields - with some darker toning on high points of the design that I guess are bordering on brown? Or does that make it RB?

 

I've tried taking a look at some Heritage photos of RD vs. RB but the color on them is woefully inconsistent in them for me to really figure this out.

 

Thanks!

 

 

P.S. And if you're wondering, this is applicable to a coin I just bought that I'll be posting photos of later today that I'm not sure if it's in the RD or RB category.

[BillJones]

"Red" means the original mint color that a copper coin had when it was struck. For older pieces the color can mellow a little bit, but it is bright and attractive.

 

There is such a thing as a low MS grade red copper coin. For example I own a John Bell political token (from the 1860 presidential election) that has full mint red color, but there is a finger print. Full red coins can also have "fly specks" small black spots that form on the medal. The grade might be lowered to MS-60 to 62, but it's still a red coin.

 

Red and Brown is a coin that is had toned over part of its surface. There is red on the piece, but it's something like 20 to 60 percent toned brown.

 

A Brown coin can brown all over, or there might be a little red peeking out, but not enough to raise it to R&B.

[TomB]

I don't like the way NGC and PCGS use the RD designation because they sometimes include copper that has toned different colors. If the coin is mostly red, but has some green, violet or other color on it, too, then it may receive the RD designation.

[astrostu]

Aww ... see, BillJones' explanation I understood, it was nice 'n' clear-cut. You come along, Tom, and muddy the waters.

 

It actually seems to be fairly important what RD vs. RB is, since prices can more than double for the exact same coin - date, MM, grade the same - but being RB vs. RD.

[Oldtrader3]

I believe that red brown (RB) means 5-95% red. Red (RD) is 95-100% red. Brown (BN) is 0-5% red. These standards are regularly ignored because many red coins turn in their holders but are still graded "RD" even though they are technically RB. In truth, red also does not mean blue, purple or many of the other colors that copper turns as it oxidises. This is a sticky point between coin dealers and collectors. Most dealers will call any coin that is graded RD by a TPG red even though it is technically RB. Most of us don't know what 95% red even looks like, hence the rub.

[BillJones]

These standards are regularly ignored because many red coins turn in their holders ...

 

Some copper coins "turn in their holders" because they are artificially made "red." Spotting the coins that have been messed with can be tricky. For that reason I prefer coins that are R&B or brown, or red coins (which I usually avoid because of the price and their fragile nature) that are in very old holders. A red coin in a new holder is an assumption of risk.

 

As for the R&B standard I seriously double that you would get an R&B on a coin that has only 5% red. I’d say that you need to have at least 25% of the surfaces red.

 

I've also seen some Indian cents that were totally "red" that were called R&B. The reason for that oddity is that the "red" is an enhancement, and the R&B call is actually a "net grade" for the color. I'm not saying that was the right thing for the slab company to do. I'm only making an observation.

 

[astrostu]

Okay, so I would guess that my coin in question is ~75% red, so it would qualify for the RB designation by pretty much anyone's reckoning on this post so far.

[Oldtrader3]

Bill, I was just quoting the standard. I agree with you about coins turning in the holder and I guess that it is a hard lesson that any collector of RD Lincoln's needs to learn, usually the hard way. I certainly learned the hard way when some better date coins that looked righteous turned before my very eyes by the time (6) months in the holder had passed. I also agree that a 95% BR coin would be graded RB. I don't know where the actual market grading lines are. Just a calibrated eyeball's guess or judgement call.

 

Astrostu, don't use Heritage's cent pictures as a criteria for judging cent color. Their cent photos are skewed toward brown and don't reveal much.