Crack-outs --- The Roulette Wheel of the Numismatic Casino

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

Hello Friends,

 

I admit to being too new to this bulletin board world to be posting new topics, but some timely advise might save me from making a huge mistake.

 

Last week I sent in my first crack-out: a 1952 Franklin Proof. It was in a PCI slab graded PF 68 Deep Cameo. When I purchased the coin, I was pricing it as if it would be about PF66 with no cameo desgination. I got it well under $100 shipped.

 

Well, I bust it open like an otter cracking open a clam. Caution: I nearly skewered my hand getting it open. PCI slabs are tough to crack. Well, I sent it in to NGC and await my results.

 

I would like to hear from my colleagues on two age-old topics:

 

1.) Should I have sent the coin in the previous slab? Does NGC have a rule of thumb vis-a-vis other grading services? Like take the PCI grade minus 2 and seal her up?

 

2.) Will the market for Franklins ever improve? I have been hoarding Franklins for the last 10 years. I have a roll set from 1954 forward, including a beautiful undipped roll of 1955 Bugs Bunny Franks (the best of which is being graded now). Most of the rolls were purchased back when silver was below $5.00 per ounce, and the later date UNC rolls could be had under $100.

 

Postscript: Why doesn't NGC acknowledge the BUGS BUNNY 1955 as a variety? None on the census.

 

Thank anyone who takes the time to respond to this posting. I have enjoyed discovering the NGC bulletin board. Now if I could just figure out how to post a pictire file ....

 

Greg Harkenrider

Frankfort, KY

[MTHead-migration]

Well, I bust it open like an otter cracking open a clam.

 

You beat it on a flat rock balanced on your belly?

[MarkFeld]

Hello Friends,

 

I admit to being too new to this bulletin board world to be posting new topics, but some timely advise might save me from making a huge mistake.

 

Last week I sent in my first crack-out: a 1952 Franklin Proof. It was in a PCI slab graded PF 68 Deep Cameo. When I purchased the coin, I was pricing it as if it would be about PF66 with no cameo desgination. I got it well under $100 shipped.

 

Well, I bust it open like an otter cracking open a clam. Caution: I nearly skewered my hand getting it open. PCI slabs are tough to crack. Well, I sent it in to NGC and await my results.

 

I would like to hear from my colleagues on two age-old topics:

 

1.) Should I have sent the coin in the previous slab? Does NGC have a rule of thumb vis-a-vis other grading services? Like take the PCI grade minus 2 and seal her up?

 

2.) Will the market for Franklins ever improve? I have been hoarding Franklins for the last 10 years. I have a roll set from 1954 forward, including a beautiful undipped roll of 1955 Bugs Bunny Franks (the best of which is being graded now). Most of the rolls were purchased back when silver was below $5.00 per ounce, and the later date UNC rolls could be had under $100.

 

Postscript: Why doesn't NGC acknowledge the BUGS BUNNY 1955 as a variety? None on the census.

 

Thank anyone who takes the time to respond to this posting. I have enjoyed discovering the NGC bulletin board. Now if I could just figure out how to post a pictire file ....

 

Greg Harkenrider

Frankfort, KY

Hi Greg and welcome to the forum.

 

1) Under the circumstances you described, I don't think it matters that you cracked the coin out instead of submitting it for crossover (at a lower grade) in the slab it was in. To my knowledge, NGC doesn't have any rule of thumb with respect to other grading companies. Nor should they.

 

2) None of us can know if the market for business strike Franklins will improve. That said, they appear to be plentiful enough so that I don't see why they would enjoy a noticeable increase in value in the foreseeable future. Hopefully someone else will be able to answer your question about the "Bugs Bunny" variety.

 

I'm going to look for a previous thread and/or post to try to help you with instructions for posting images, and will check back in if you haven't received the help you need.

 

Edited to add: It appears that this thread provided another poster with the information he needed in order to post images.

[TomB]

There is nothing wrong with starting threads early in your NGC posting career. In fact, new ideas allow the board to have more vitality.

 

Mark has already given you good answers to some of your questions. I believe there are two parts to your question about the Bugs Bunny variety. The first is that this is truly a minor die clash and most die clashes are not attributed. However, if otherwise non-noteworthy "varieties" have a cool name then they may get attributed such as the SuperBird variety of 1952 proof Washington quarter. The second likely reason you do not see this die clash attributed is no doubt related to trademark concerns since NGC does not own the rights to the use of the Bugs Bunny name, as far as I know.

[WoodenJefferson]

Time Warner may frown upon a company to use the term "Bugs Bunny" as infringement. (appearantly the competitor ATS does not care)

 

With all the legal problems now days a company must maintain themselves within patent laws. In 2000, Warner Bros. decided to make the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies library exclusive to fellow Time Warner properties, specifically Cartoon Network. Immediately prior to this decision, Looney Tunes shorts were airing on several networks at once: on Cartoon Network, on Nickelodeon (as Looney Tunes on Nickelodeon), and on ABC (as The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show). The latter two had been particularly long running series, and the Warner Bros. decision forced the two networks to cancel the programs. This is the main reason why Looney Tunes are seldom seen on television today.

 

As TomB has said, the error is a minor "die clash" that has been popularized by a famous cartoon character, easy to spot and easy to sell.

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot

 

Yes, PCGS recognizes the term "Bugs Bunny"...but around here we call them ATS (Across The Street)

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

Regarding Bugs Bunny: I believe I have seen PCGS slabs with the Bugs Bunny variety attribution. Just wondered why NGC didn't go there.

 

The one I submitted for grading had some really cool front fangs. I will show detailed pictures when it returns.

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

Follow-up on appreciation of Franklins: I thought that they may be a good candidate for the smelters pot. Any business strike circulated Franklin is worth just about as much in metalic content as numismatic value. I guess what I was trying to get at was this: do people really melt these things down into silver and copper when the price of silver gets over certain thresholds? If so, then it would be my hope that the remeining specimens that don't get melted off will appreciate?

 

Or am I just trying to justify the 15% of my coin portfolio that is sunk in Franklins?

 

I do happen to like these coins numismatically, but my day profession is a Senior economist, and I hate wasting precious space in my vault on bulky circulated Frankins. It's inefficient.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I guess what I was trying to get at was this: do people really melt these things down into silver and copper when the price of silver gets over certain thresholds? If so, then it would be my hope that the remeining specimens that don't get melted off will appreciate?

Typically, coins aren't melted as long as they have numismatic value, beyond their bullion value. So I doubt that enough uncirculated Franklins will be melted to cause the remaining ones to appreciate in value. Granted, if the price of silver were to escalate significantly from here, that could happen. But if you think that will occur, you might as well just buy silver bullion.

[physics-fan3.14]

I must say, I love Franklins as well. I have far more than 15% of my numismatic portfolio in Franklins, haha. I am also disappointed with NGC's lack of Bugs Bunny designation, I recently purchased a MS-64FBL Bugs Bunny graded by NGC.

 

I think Franklin's will be underappreciated for a while. They are sort of sandwiched between the very popular (and very beautiful) Walkers, and the current half dollar, both of which are more popular. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people think they're ugly, and you get a pretty unpopular coin. It doesn't matter that they have relatively low mintages, the set is pretty short, and if you can find them pretty affordable. I don't know why Franklin doesn't get more love, but that just means cheaper prices for me.

[World Colonial]

I do not think that the Franklin half is an unattractive coin though I agree that it is less popular than both the Walkers and Kenndy. And while I think the financial prospects for this coin are poor to average outside of the silver content, I think these are some of the most reasonably priced US cons.

 

I do not collect any US coins, so someone else would be better at price trends on this series. However, I believe that there are some general comments I can make. I think it is likely that many of them were melted during the 1979-1980 silver boom and if silver moves significantly higher (which I do not expect for the near future), they could hit the melting pot as well, at least for coins that are up to the mid-uncirculated grade. From a pricing standpoint though, even with attrition, the demand combined with the remaining supply is not enough to put the series in the "best buy" category financially.

 

Some of the coins I believe are much cheaper than they were 20 or more years ago. If I recall correctly, the 1949-S used to be a $400 coin in MS-60 (sounds too high but that is what I remember). I also remember that people used to hoard some of these coins, such as the 1955, because the mintages were relatively low which presumably means that the survival rate of this supposedly low mintage date is much higher than normal in high grade.

 

The first 1949-S specimen I pulled up on Heritage was a PCGS MS-64 that sold yesterday for $115. The auction description lists a PCGS census of 1282 for this grade with 1240 higher. That is a very large population for a supposed key date.

 

To me, the cameo and ultra/deep cameo proofs offer the best value (because I like the way they look), but even many of these have large populations. Heritage also recenly sold a 1956 NGC PR-66 Ultra for $115. It has a census of 22 with 203 graded higher; still a relatively large number. On the other end, there are a few 1950 proofs with this designation, but they are already expensive, with the last one (PR-64 DCAM) sellling for $6300.

 

But if you like them and do not care about the financial prospects or are willing to take the risk, go ahead and buy them. A full set of high grade business strikes and proofs (even cameos) are well within reach of many collector's budgets.

[TraderGuys-migration]

Hi Bourbon: Don't ever feel that you can't or shouldn'tpost new topics. The people here are just like you and I, collectors and they are all very helpful.

 

As to the Franklins, I also collect them and find them very interesting. You may be surprised by how your crack-out comes back as many very nice Frankies were previously graded by PCI.

 

Collect what you like and enjoy the boards. We're all here to have a good time.

 

TraderGuys

[Dcoin]

Then again you might be surprised

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Congratulations on owning a roll set of Franklins. I was commissioned last year to assemble a complete roll of 1949-S halves in UNC, as it would be the final roll for a client's collection, and I was able to accomplish the deed. However, I did note at the time that the market was soft, as I was able to pick up every coin for under "bid", and that includes several certified coins.

 

I suspect the series will remain relatively quiet for the near future.

[PCcoins]

Then again you might be surprised

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Try using a pair of pliers and crushing the top of the holder being careful not to touch the coin itself. When the top of the holder splits apart then carefully pull iy apart.

 

If you are going to send the coin in the holder then you need to specify that there is no minimum grade otherwise they will not do anything if it doesn't cross to that grade or higher and will just send it back.

[Oldtrader3]

I use a small hammer and just tap hard enough to crack the seal all the way around the periphery of the slab. Just be careful that you don't scratch the coin with the sharp plastic edges.

 

I like the Franklin halfs. I have put sets together several times over the past forty years. Now may be the time for building a "contrarian" set when prices are low, decent pieces are below retail pricing and everyone is uninterested in the series. Just buy the best and most attractive ones that you can find and afford, FBL or not. Then hang on to they for awhile. Franklin's have been a quiet series for about (5) years now.

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

Dear Friends,

 

Thank you for so much good advice on Franklins. I appreciate it very much. I don't feel as bad now for owning as many Franklins as I do.

 

I also thank everyone for confirming the conclusion I have recently came to in my own mind: Buy the best specimens my budget will afford.

 

When silver was cheap, I was a Franklin Investor, not a Franklin Collector. I was able to get circulated rolls at around $40, and uncirculated rolls for anywhere between $65 and $200. I did pay almost $200 (inc shipping) for my roll of 1955 Bugs Bunny. But that was back when silver was $4.30 per ounce.

 

I am now tempted to bust open the rolls and send in the best specimens for grading, but shotgun Franklin rolls seem to carry a premium.

 

I am trying to get a registry set together. I don't know if others are finding the same things, but my 1959-1963 rolls that I bought in tubes have many coins with a weak strike, and FBL specimens are rare in these rolls. At least they don't look FBL to me, and with prices so low it is hard to justify slabbing Franklins unless you think they are choice or gem quality with a legitimate shot at FBL.

 

I will leave you all tonight with one additional observation with EBAY rolls of Franklins: I suspect many sellers are dipping their rolls before selling. The coins look a little bit too uniform to me, and somehow I can just tell that they have the look of a dipped coin. My question: If I suspect a roll has been dipped, should I assume that NGC will body bag the coins and I will lose my grading fee?

 

Thank you.

[James_OldeTowne]

I will leave you all tonight with one additional observation with EBAY rolls of Franklins: I suspect many sellers are dipping their rolls before selling. The coins look a little bit too uniform to me, and somehow I can just tell that they have the look of a dipped coin. My question: If I suspect a roll has been dipped, should I assume that NGC will body bag the coins and I will lose my grading fee?

A properly performed dip will not result in a bodybag.

 

Examine the edges of the coins. If they are uniformly tarnished and grey, even if the coins themselves are blast white, the chances are excellent you have very original coins.

 

Great series to be enamored with!

[rrantique]

Welcome to the forum Greg.

[physics-fan3.14]

Two things there, Bourbon. First, the 1949S is one of the keys in FBL, not regular strike. The S mint franklins always come weakly struck, the most famous being teh 1953S. The supply of Franklins far exceeds the demand.

 

Second, major props on the roll of Bugs Bunnies for $200. I just recently paid around $75 for my NGC MS-64 FBL, and sold my raw MS-63 for $35, so making a large profit on your roll will not be hard at all.

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

The you physics-fan. I will let you know how the second coin in the 1955 BB roll grades. I sent it to NGC some time ago and I expect it back any day. It was a beautiful coin with remarkably distinct fangs.

[Houston Investor]

Franklins are a fun series to collect. The 1950 proof has lots of potential to increase in value, especially in 64 and higher. I pick up a nice 1950 PF Frank whenever I can and just put it away in my bank box.

 

Franklins are fun to buy, especially in roll quantity. When I first entered the coin business I bought (you might say the price was right) about 100 rolls (mixed) of Franks (both BU and circ), took many out and put in 2x2's, priced them at keystone, then put them all in a big plastic tub junk box. People dug thru it like they were looking for treasure and one guy who bought $20 worth said thats all the money he brought to the show. Some of them were really nice BU but it would have cost me more to slab them than what I had in them. They eventually sold out but all the nice slabs I bought with the money were fun to buy because in 1990 the slab market had dropped drastically compared to 89. Many of those coins still have not come back.

[World Colonial]

I'm sure you are more knowledgeable on these coins than I do since I do not and have not ever collected them. The observations I make are usually on the supply side and to the extent that I under estimate the demand, then my opinions will be incorrect on the price potential. In this particular case, I would expect that in addition to collectors of the series, the other primary collectors would be those who collect proof sets.

 

If I ever bought one, it would be a single cameo or ultra/deep cameo proof as a type coin. However, that is unlikely because I always compare buying a coin that is not part of my core collection against what else the same money can buy in other numismatic material, either in whole or in part. I'm not sure how other collectors make this type of assessment but there are simply too many other coins, from both a financial and aesthetic standpoint, that I would rather own and I do not even have enough funds to complete my core series.

 

With the 1950 Franklin, though it is scarce compared to other proof sets from the era, with a mintage of over 51,000 and a likely survival rate of at least 90%, that is still a very large number for a non-circulating coin. The latest auction results on Heritage provide prices realized of about $350 for PR-64 and slightly over $600 for PR-64 cameo. I think the cameo is probably a better buy at this time based upon those results.

[BillJones]

Will the market for Franklins ever improve?

 

I would not bet the ranch on them. There are many, many Franklin half dollars salted away in rolls. As a result there are many, many Mint State coins hanging over the market.

 

Franklin half dollars fall into the modern coin category, and right now there are so many new modern coins on the market that a collector could go broke trying to keep up with the stuff. I know that I have lost interest because there is so darn much new stuff out there.

 

I have a lot of respect for high contrast cameo Proof Frankin half dollars. I think that they are very attractive coins. But the market is limited. As for the rest of them, my view is too little demand, too much supply.