PF70DCAM $1

[Muleman]

My dad saw 4 $1 president coins graded PF 70 Deep Cam. for 169.99 company that graded the coins was ANACS. I know PCGS and NGC are the way to go but he was wondering if it was a sound investment. I have my doubts since its ANACS but what would you say .

[harvey8542]

I think you can find NGC/PCGS for the same or lower price.

[Muleman]

Another question , one that Im sure comes up all the time. How does ANACS stack up to PCGS and NGC.

[MunkyMan95]

ANACS used to be a very reputable company. But as of late there has been some uncertainty as to the future of ANACS. If you do a search of the forum you will likely find threads on the subject.

 

$170 for some modern 70s is not a good deal IMO, and not a good investment.

[physics-fan3.14]

No, it is not a sound investment. Investment implies future financial profits. Buying 70 coins is not going to reap profits, especially if not in NGC/ PCGS holders (note: I would not consider a 70 in the top 2 TPGS an investment either). ANACS used to be considered one of the top three, but since the beginning of the year this is no longer the case.

 

DO NOT BUY MODERN HIGH GRADE COINS AS AN INVESTMENT!!!!!!! Do not buy them with the expectation that you'll even get your money out of them. Buy them only if you think that it is worth it to build a set of ultra-high grade moderns. PERIOD!

[EZ_E]

 

DO NOT BUY MODERN HIGH GRADE COINS AS AN INVESTMENT!!!!!!! Do not buy them with the expectation that you'll even get your money out of them. Buy them only if you think that it is worth it to build a set of ultra-high grade moderns. PERIOD!

 

Every collector should print that statement out and stick it on their fridge. (thumbs u

[TomB]

I would not pay $170 for four PF70DCAM ANACS Presidential dollars.

[Muleman]

OK guys Ill pass this along to him.

 

I usually stick to silver and gold coins but he was buying this cause he said they have to be worth at least 170 down the road. . thanks for the heads up I had a feeling but wasnt sure how anacs stood up to the other companies since its been awhile

[ant]

 

DO NOT BUY MODERN HIGH GRADE COINS AS AN INVESTMENT!!!!!!! Do not buy them with the expectation that you'll even get your money out of them. Buy them only if you think that it is worth it to build a set of ultra-high grade moderns. PERIOD!

 

Every collector should print that statement out and stick it on their fridge. (thumbs u

 

[lehigh96]

 

DO NOT BUY MODERN HIGH GRADE COINS AS AN INVESTMENT!!!!!!! Do not buy them with the expectation that you'll even get your money out of them. Buy them only if you think that it is worth it to build a set of ultra-high grade moderns. PERIOD!

 

Every collector should print that statement out and stick it on their fridge. (thumbs u

 

I am going to do just that, but I am going to buy one PF70DCAM $1 first. Then I will superglue a magnet to the reverse in order to keep the note there.

[CHABSENTIA]

I am not positive as I only scan these programs during a Commercial when I am watching other programs but I beleive that I saw th this one T.V. coin show called CSN selling what you mention for that same price.

 

 

First of all , these programs have about a 40% mark up.You need to stay away from them except watching them occassionally for entertainment value.

 

I have used ANACS for Vams other than the top 100 or hot 50 because NGC will

only certify the latter Vams. Twice I have cracked ANACS coins out of their holders and submitted them to NGC and received the same exact grade so I am really bot sure here.

 

These Presidential dollars are inexpensive in the first place. I have two or three of each year from the U.S, Mint .The Mint charges $4.95 to ship them and they are shipping them with other sets otherwise the $4.95 would be large in relation to their price and they are shipped four at a time and even with shipping them fourat a time it is not economically feasible.

 

 

I got them as part of my regular 2007 Proof set.The box stated 10 of 14 coins. The regular mint proofs were the 10 and the Presedentails were the other four even though you ordered only the regular proof sets.

 

 

Comparing these sets to " moderns' and then making the statement about it being ridiculous to collect moderns is like comparing apples and oranges.A silver eagle is a 'modern' and has at least some intrinsic value due to its silver content. It then becomes a matter of grade, Since most collect them in MS69 or PF69 there is still a difference between the grades and different values.

 

I beleive that the TPGs use 1955 as the year which starts the "moderns".I have every Proof Set and Mint Set directly from the US. Mint.I have the Proof Sets from 1968 and the Mint sets from 1970.These would all be "moderns"

 

There are many valuable coins in certain grades in some of those years so I find it to be comparing apples to oranges when comparing them to the Presidential coins and then denigating them.

 

 

I was checking EBAY the other night and although the auction wasn't finished ther was a 2008 W Silver Eagle reverse of 07 in MS70 that was at $440.00. I say that this is ridiculous. I don't think that the Seller of this "modern' refuses the sale.

 

Meanwhile you can hardly compare the Presidentials which have no intrinsic metal value and which appears to be endless as long as there are Presidents etc to have a value of $170.00 for four of them.

 

 

[NoTwilight]

PCGS PR70DCAM sets for 08 are selling for $1200 to $1400.

 

I really don't know how many of these ANACS is slabbing or how loose they are in grading. I know PCGS quality for moderns and always recommend them.

 

BTW, you don't ask for modern advice here as most classic coin collectors will tell you not to waste your money whether they know anything about the series or not. It's like asking a fair price for Jewish religious artifacts in a Catholic church. Don't blame the Catholics for telling you they have no value to them.

 

--Jerry

[Jeffrey Cardona]

PCGS PR70DCAM sets for 08 are selling for $1200 to $1400.

 

I really don't know how many of these ANACS is slabbing or how loose they are in grading. I know PCGS quality for moderns and always recommend them.

 

BTW, you don't ask for modern advice here as most classic coin collectors will tell you not to waste your money whether they know anything about the series or not. It's like asking a fair price for Jewish religious artifacts in a Catholic church. Don't blame the Catholics for telling you they have no value to them.

 

--Jerry

(thumbs u Good job with that quote...I couldn't have said it better. Kind of funny that some of those modern comms are quite valuable but people say you shouldn't buy em. Nobody should buy coins for investment purposes in my opinion. But if you have bought these comms from the mint...there is a very good chance that you can make some money off them. Just take a look at the values of some of the comms....look at the 2001 Buffalo, even at the lower grades this coin is worth some $$. The 2006 Ben Franklins are near the $200 range in only 2 years. There are a few coins that are in the $1000 range also. Not to bad for an investment of $30-$50. Speaking strickly profit here...if you buy straight from the mint, not from 3rd person, and are lucky with your grades , you can turn quite a profit a few years down the road!!

[Oldtrader3]

The MS70, 2008 rev of 07 SAE was a $150-$200 coin in MS70 two weeks ago. Don't buy it for $400.

[CHABSENTIA]

I bought the Ben Franklin series from the U.S. Mint in 2006. Didn't do anyhting with them. I saw on Ebay a few months ago where some especially the Buffalo you mention in 2001 were selling for big $$s. I sent the Ben Franklin Scientist in and one came back as a MS69 and the other Scientist came back as a PF70.I believe the PF 70 goes for about $200.00 I was looking the other day and the 1999 Yellowstone in PF70 is going for over $500.00.

 

I bought the 2008 Bald Eagles and submitted them.One came back as a MS70 and the other came back as a PF69.This MS70 and the PF70 paid my grading fees many times over. I don't plan to sell but I can't understand how somebody would say there is no value in "Moderns".

 

Some of these Modern Commemoratives have a mintage of only 30,000 and many are less than 90,000.

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I just mentioned this as I had to look twice.I was looking at the prices of just 2008s and saw it. Talk about hype. I wouldn't pay a $100.00 let alone over $400.00 for it.This may be a fluke as it was the only MS70 as the rest were MS69.

 

People are going nuts on this variety

[NoTwilight]

The MS70, 2008 rev of 07 SAE was a $150-$200 coin in MS70 two weeks ago. Don't buy it for $400.

 

I sold one today for $650.

 

BTW, the 2007 PCGS PR70DCAM Pres sets are hard to come by at $1500. I have only one left and can't find anymore. --Jerry

[CHABSENTIA]

We are talking about the 2008 W reverse of 07. This is an MS coin.. The PR70 is a proof and is last years coin.I have both a Proof and an MS in 70 for 2007 and would not pay that much for either.

[NoTwilight]

We are talking about the 2008 W reverse of 07. This is an MS coin.. The PR70 is a proof and is last years coin.I have both a Proof and an MS in 70 for 2007 and would not pay that much for either.

 

This thread keeps morphing. I'm trying to keep up with it. It started with Proof Presidents, went to 08/07 silver eagles in MS70, and now we're talking PR70 and MS70 coins from 07 which are both about $150 coins.

 

--Jerry

 

PS if anyone wants a PCGS PR70DCAM president for a fridge magnet I have a few unmatched one's available outside the set.

[CHABSENTIA]

I mentioned the fact that a 2008W reverse of 07 was at auction on EBay in response to another comment on it. Old Trader 3 then said not to buy it for $400.00 and a third poster said that the last 2008 W reverse of 07 hasd gone for over $700.00

 

While it is true that this originally started with the Proof Presidents it morphed at least four posts ago into the 2008W reverse 07 .

 

Then for some reason it went to a 2007 PF70 coin for $1500.00 which is why I made the comment that was quoted.

[BULLY]

I am going to be brave and go AGAINST the popular opinion of most of the posters in this thread. My hope is that it doesn't sound like a rant, despite its length. Those who know me are aware that I just tend to be very long winded.

 

I would, in fact, buy the highest grade coin that you can afford (i.e PF70UC), but I would NOT overpay for it. One must be cautious of the going rate, and evaluate of he/she can get the coins graded himself at a comparable or lower cost, of if buying the coins graded is actually MORE ECONOMICAL.

 

For instance, how many coins might it take to get a set of all four presidential dollars that are PF70UC, plus the cost of the set (or MULTIPLE SETS), plus the cost of grading, plus the cost of shipping to and from NGC or PCGS.

 

NOTE: I am eliminating ANACS because on this point, I agree, I would NOT pay premium prices for modern coins graded by ANACS. For modern coins, NGC and PCGS really are the two "top-tier" grading companies. Some people are VERY attached to PCGS, and believe that it is premier, and will even pay premium prices over NGC coins for the same items. Personally, i find this ridiculous. NGC is also a top-tier grading company, and is the official grading service of the ANA and the PNG, as such, I think it is at least on par with PCGS, and despite that fact that there is anecdotal evidence that some coins command higher premiums in PCGS slabs, I think it's because of outdated mindsets, not because of ACTUAL better quality grading services.

People will also cite anecdotal evidence of submitting coins from NGC to PCGS and getting them downgraded -- and others will have the same scenarios when submitting PCGS coins submitted to NGC. The two are truly superior companies in the world of coin grading.

 

ANACS was, in it's heyday, a superior grading company. While it is true that it is country's OLDEST grading service, second or third tier. While it is heads and tails above some of the others, it is not in the same category as NGC and PCGS. If you had a large quantity of modern coins you just wanted encapsulated INEXPENSIVELY, maybe ROLLS of coins like presidential dollars that you just want graded as "BU" or something like that, maybe ANACS can do that job at $8 per coin or something, because your coins will be protected, inexpensively, by a REASONABLY respectably service. I wouldn't send the most treasured coins of your collection to them, however. ANACS often has sales for bulk submissions of modern items, they have one right now actually.

 

But I digress.

 

Where I disagree about acquiring high grade modern coins is that I must question the sources of who is answering.

 

1. Are the collectors answering people who collect MODERN COINS?

2. OR are the folks responding people who are collectors of older issues and who have little respect for collecting modern issues in ANY FORM to begin with?

 

If there is no money to be had in selling modern coins in 70 condition, why are there SO MANY dealers who exclusively sell modern coins? Who even have the word MODERN in their business names? On what sales data is this opinion based? Every indicator seems to point to a STRONG coin market, modern and otherwise, and what do we have to thank for it? Sure, the rise in precious metal prices earlier this year had something to do with it, but the State Quarter program brought literally HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of collectors to the hobby. What are they collecting? Modern coins. Some then expanded to collect everything from modern coins, to classics like Lincoln Cents, to Morgan Dollars, and even foreign coins. The draw, however, was a remarkable MODERN program that changed the face of collecting.

 

For coin collectors, what do we hope for other than eye appeal? Condition, condition, condition. With older coins, MS or PF in the 60s maybe as high as 65 or 66 is often considered EXTRAORDINARY, while collecting coins in the MS60-64 range is more realistic.

 

To MANY modern collectors, condition is very important as well, and anything LESS THAN a 69 grade is strangely almost worth LESS THAN issue price! Silver commemoratives which earn a MS or PF68 grade for instance can often be had for incredibly bargains accordingly. 69 graded coins are a "norm" an 70 graded coins are the coveted prize because with all the coins issued, collectors are looking for SOMETHING that stands out among the others. PERFECTION is one way for a coin to stand out.

 

Just like those postings about the 2008-W Silver American Eagle with the Reverse of the 2007 SAE. The fact that it is fetching $300 for an MS69 and about $600 for an MS70, does that really seem SO strange?

 

Think about it. The Mint originally said that the maximum they thought might exist of this error coin was 47,000. Now, the figures that I'm hearing are that the Mint may have stopped the release of many of the errors, and only 15,000 - 25,000 coins may have been released with this error. In a 23-year run, other than an odd coin here or there, this is the first significant error in the Silver Eagle program, and there are probably no more than 25,000 of them.

 

Let's relate this to a particular MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR. Let's look a rare issue according to the Red Book, an 1885CC Morgan Dollar, which shows a mintage of 228,000 -- that is TEN TIMES the number of this error coin. In VF-20, in a 2007 book no less, so this value has presumably increased by now, the price guide lists it as being worth $475! That is a silver dollar, much less scarce, and in much worse condition. Hmmm.

 

In MS63? $650

 

MS65? $1,600

 

What might a non-coin collector say about the price of those coins? What would the wife or husband of a coin collector say about the price of those coins if a coin-collector wanted one for his or her collection? And they aren't even the most expensive or rarest Morgan Dollars out there!

 

So, for a Modern Coin Collector, PF70UC and MS70 coins are significant.

 

Now, back to the example at hand -- the price of the presidential dollars. ANACS for $170 - $180. I wouldn't buy ANACS graded coins for that price. However, $170 or $180 for say an NGC multi-holder, if you can get it, would be a great price - at $180 that is $45 per coin.

 

Thing again about the price of the set. Then think about grading the coins $15 for the set. Then grading, $12.50 per coin at the Modern Tier, so that's $50 + $15 = $65. The chances of getting FOUR PF70UC from ONE set are slim, so you submit TWO sets, and that brings your costs to $130, plus shipping both ways, and even then you aren't guaranteed the grade. The price of $170 or $180 is looking pretty good, and you spare yourself the submission hassle. Also, NGC charges you extra to match the PF70UC coins from multiple sets to put it altogether into ONE multi-holder, I think an extra $5-10 for that service. If that was already done for you, another savings there.

 

So, there is no precious metal content, nor is there precious metal content (I mean sure, the value of copper increased in the older ones) in Lincoln cents going back to 1909. However, many of them are VERY collectible, especially complete sets, and now we have a 100th anniversary of the coin coming in 2009.

 

So, State Quarters were a huge hit and infused coin collecting with new and interested collectors, many with deep pockets. Presidential dollars are also drawing new collectors. Who knows what they may be worth some day as well? If one can afford a PF70UC, as someone who collects modern coins myself (among other things), I'd encourage them to get them, but ONLY from NGC or PCGS.

 

----------------------------------

No, it is not a sound investment. Investment implies future financial profits. Buying 70 coins is not going to reap profits, especially if not in NGC/ PCGS holders (note: I would not consider a 70 in the top 2 TPGS an investment either). ANACS used to be considered one of the top three, but since the beginning of the year this is no longer the case.

 

DO NOT BUY MODERN HIGH GRADE COINS AS AN INVESTMENT!!!!!!! Do not buy them with the expectation that you'll even get your money out of them. Buy them only if you think that it is worth it to build a set of ultra-high grade moderns. PERIOD!

[CHABSENTIA]

There are people who will pay more for the CC Morgans for many reasons. Why use the Mint Mar in the Morgans that are the most scarce.

 

According to the latest issue of Coin World there were 5,809,000 American Eagle silver bullion coins sold during the first four minths of 2008 which is more than double the number of the same coins sold the first four months of 2007.

 

I don't think that there is an entire mintage of CC coins that is over 2 million and that is high because there are some that have less than a million. Not only that but when you are talking about the 1885 CC you are talking about a coin that is 123 years old. The reason that coin in a high grade commands such a premium is that there are very few 123 year old coins in high grades. The 2008 W is less than a year old and higher grades such as MS69 are in plentiful supply.

 

How can anybody possibly compare the 2008 with the 1885 of any mint on an even keel?

 

How can the U.S. Mint now say that there might only be 15,000 when they have already said that there are at "least" 47,000 or three production shifts? How could they stop something that they claim has already happened when they have already stated that when they did stop them that there were at least 47,000 or three shifts?

 

Sounds more plausible to me that people are spreading these rumors to try and make them appear more valuable.

 

Meanwhile nobody is talking about the 2007 Proof Jefferson President that has an error on the side where the lettering on side is out of sequence and seems to be much rarer than the 47,000 by several times.

 

I can remember when the very first errors came out on ther sides of the very first Presidents and they were selling for $499.00 I have seen the same errors for $199.00 a few months ago.

 

If somebody wants to spend $700.00 for what appears to many to be a hyped coin then that is fine with me.I have a complete collection of both Mint State and Proof American Silver Eagles. I would never pay that much.

 

 

[Bourbon Trailer-migration]

Sorry, I think it is a bad deal. Three reasons:

 

1.) ANACS is below NGC. People wanting perfect sets want perfect sets by NGC and PCGS, not ANACS or IGC.

 

2.) Look on the population reports. The ratio from 69:70 on NGC is 3:1, with very few grading below PFUC69. The ratio will likely be closer to 1:1 or 2:1 on ANACS. That tells me scarcity will not be on your side. Too many pf70 specimens spells bad value. If you can crack open a proof set (and these proof specimens are not limited editions) and get a pretty decent chance of getting a pf70 grade, then I just don't see an opportunity for appreciation.

 

3.) I just don't see longstanding hype for these presidential dollar coins. However, if you must invest a small portion of your coin portfolio in $1 presidentials, watch the circulation numbers and see if you can find a date and version with lower circulation and a low ratio of PF70's compared to PF69's (in other words, a mintage where for whatever reason pf70's are more scarce -- like an 8:1 or 9:1 ration of 69:70).

 

Scarcity is the only way to have long-run value. Look what happened to statehood quarters. In 2000 and 2001, people were panic buying high grade state quarters, rolls and proof set. The price on rolls is about half what it was, and people are strating to finally understand that they minted over 500,000,000 of the business strikes. It is hard to find long-run value with those high populations.

[BULLY]

As I said, and reiterate for clarity, I concur with the point below, that people who want perfect sets, will want NGC or PCGS. My earlier post describes in greater detail my feeling about the various grading services. However, I don't think you can go wrong with NGC, nor with PCGS. Paying for ANACS PF70UC, however, is not where you will find your future value, as I explained in my earlier posting.

 

I'm going to go against the grain here again, and say that I do see long term potential in Presidential Dollar coins. The fact that First Spouse bullion issues are being sold draws additional interest, and if gold prices rise, that will help the value, because people will want complete pairs/sets.

 

Further, if people cannot afford the bullion First Spouse issues, what I have found ABSOLUTELY REMARKABLE is something I have never seen before: Widespread production, accumulation, and GRADING (such as those graded by NGC) of the First Spouse MEDALS issued by the U.S. Mint. They are just Bronze Medals, and medal collecting has traditionally not been as widespread. However, because of the popularity of the Presidential Dollars, people want to pair the First Spouse medals (in lieu of the First Spouse bullion coins) with their dollar coins, and are adding them to their collections, and are having them graded by NGC, who is even using special First Spouse labels for them.

 

Is that an indication of interest in the program? It's certainly something I've not seen before in the realm of any modern issues. There are also plenty of collectors who have no problem spending the money for the VERY LIMITED number of gold bullion First Spouse coins available. It's truly impressive that despite high gold prices, they sell fast.

-----------------------------

 

Sorry, I think it is a bad deal. Three reasons:

 

1.) ANACS is below NGC. People wanting perfect sets want perfect sets by NGC and PCGS, not ANACS or IGC.

 

3.) I just don't see longstanding hype for these presidential dollar coins. However, if you must invest a small portion of your coin portfolio in $1 presidentials, watch the circulation numbers and see if you can find a date and version with lower circulation and a low ratio of PF70's compared to PF69's (in other words, a mintage where for whatever reason pf70's are more scarce -- like an 8:1 or 9:1 ration of 69:70).