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since andy; mr. eureka wants an ethics question; here goes

Started by michael,

15 posts in this topic

michael

michael

Posted
Posted

you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted

1) You stated that the dealer is also a friend, and you also indicated that you were aware that he was searching for that coin. Even after a year before discovering the misattribution, I believe that someone who considers himself/herself a friend should inform the dealer.

 

2) Whether you still owned the coin, or not, has no bearing on the matter. It probably wouldn't do much good for the dealer to know the identity of the new owner, but that is not for you to decide.

 

3) It may also be that you consider the person to whom you sold the coin to be a friend as well. Perhaps it would be best to discuss the situation with him, too. Is the new owner aware of the correct attribution? If this were the case, maybe the three of you could get together and come to a fair resolution to this dilemma.

 

4) However, if the new owner could care less about either of you and doesn't feel that he/she should share the windfall with anyone, then you, at least, have lived up to your responsibilties as a friend.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

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EZ_E

EZ_E

Posted
Posted

If that is true, Chris, then you must be a mutant with upteen fingers on his hand. Yeah, you're a popular and a likable guy. As a matter of fact, I'd vote for ya for Prom Queen! ;)

 

As far as the question on hand, Mark nailed the proper actions to be taken.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??

 

The problem with most people, today, is that they are "fair-weather friends". They don't stick around when the going gets tough. You should stand by your friends even if it means that you must tell them something that may put you in a bad light with someone else. Michael did not indicate that the person who bought the coin from him is a friend, so it doesn't appear there is the dilemma of being torn between two friendships.

 

Do you ever read the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist? Here you have so-called experts on numismatic ethics at odds with one another on a variety of topics. They can't ever seem to agree on what is right or wrong.

 

You suggested that Michael should not divulge the name of the buyer. Why? If Michael truly believes that the dealer who sold him the (wrong) coin is his friend, then I believe he has a responsibility to tell him. If I were the dealer and Michael didn't tell me, then I would begin to question our friendship.

 

Please tell me where it states in numismatic ethics that there is an implied or presumed right of non-disclosure. Sorry, Mark, but I believe that my allegiance should go to my friends.

 

Chris

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
If that is true, Chris, then you must be a mutant with upteen fingers on his hand. Yeah, you're a popular and a likable guy. As a matter of fact, I'd vote for ya for Prom Queen! ;)

 

As far as the question on hand, Mark nailed the proper actions to be taken.

 

Victor, you've got to stop sticking your head under the x-ray machine. I've told you before that it takes lousy photos.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??

 

The problem with most people, today, is that they are "fair-weather friends". They don't stick around when the going gets tough. You should stand by your friends even if it means that you must tell them something that may put you in a bad light with someone else. Michael did not indicate that the person who bought the coin from him is a friend, so it doesn't appear there is the dilemma of being torn between two friendships.

 

Do you ever read the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist? Here you have so-called experts on numismatic ethics at odds with one another on a variety of topics. They can't ever seem to agree on what is right or wrong.

 

You suggested that Michael should not divulge the name of the buyer. Why? If Michael truly believes that the dealer who sold him the (wrong) coin is his friend, then I believe he has a responsibility to tell him. If I were the dealer and Michael didn't tell me, then I would begin to question our friendship.

 

Please tell me where it states in numismatic ethics that there is an implied or presumed right of non-disclosure. Sorry, Mark, but I believe that my allegiance should go to my friends.

 

Chris

I don't know precisely what Michael meant by "dealer friend". But regardless, as much as I believe in "standing by my friends", I also believe it would be wrong/improper to divulge the identity of a client to whom I had sold a coin. That is my impression regarding the right/proper way to conduct business - yes, I believe that there is generally an implied understanding of privacy. And I have spoken with numerous dealers and collectors who apparently feel the same way. I am quite surprised that you seem to feel otherwise.

 

By the way, the above has nothing to do with putting myself in a "bad light" with anyone, as after all, I did nothing wrong in the hypothetical, as far as I can tell. And I already mentioned in my initial post that I would contact my client and try to work something out. I guess we will have to agree to (strongly) disagree.

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??

 

The problem with most people, today, is that they are "fair-weather friends". They don't stick around when the going gets tough. You should stand by your friends even if it means that you must tell them something that may put you in a bad light with someone else. Michael did not indicate that the person who bought the coin from him is a friend, so it doesn't appear there is the dilemma of being torn between two friendships.

 

Do you ever read the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist? Here you have so-called experts on numismatic ethics at odds with one another on a variety of topics. They can't ever seem to agree on what is right or wrong.

 

You suggested that Michael should not divulge the name of the buyer. Why? If Michael truly believes that the dealer who sold him the (wrong) coin is his friend, then I believe he has a responsibility to tell him. If I were the dealer and Michael didn't tell me, then I would begin to question our friendship.

 

Please tell me where it states in numismatic ethics that there is an implied or presumed right of non-disclosure. Sorry, Mark, but I believe that my allegiance should go to my friends.

 

Chris

I don't know precisely what Michael meant by "dealer friend". But regardless, as much as I believe in "standing by my friends", I also believe it would be wrong/improper to divulge the identity of a client to whom I had sold a coin. That is my impression regarding the right/proper way to conduct business - yes, I believe that there is generally an implied understanding of privacy. And I have spoken with numerous dealers and collectors who apparently feel the same way. I am quite surprised that you seem to feel otherwise.

 

By the way, the above has nothing to do with putting myself in a "bad light" with anyone, as after all, I did nothing wrong in the hypothetical, as far as I can tell. And I already mentioned in my initial post that I would contact my client and try to work something out. I guess we will have to agree to (strongly) disagree.

 

Okay, Mark, let's assume that you are aware that the "dealer friend" who sold you the coin is still very distraught over the missing and very valuable coin. He still doesn't realize that he had sold it to you by mistake. Let's assume that you contact the person who bought it from you, and he says, "Tough toenails!" Now what? Do you continue to allow your "friend" to agonize over its loss? Do you accept the so-called "implied" policy of non-disclosure to protect someone who might very well show that same contempt for you some day?

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??

 

The problem with most people, today, is that they are "fair-weather friends". They don't stick around when the going gets tough. You should stand by your friends even if it means that you must tell them something that may put you in a bad light with someone else. Michael did not indicate that the person who bought the coin from him is a friend, so it doesn't appear there is the dilemma of being torn between two friendships.

 

Do you ever read the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist? Here you have so-called experts on numismatic ethics at odds with one another on a variety of topics. They can't ever seem to agree on what is right or wrong.

 

You suggested that Michael should not divulge the name of the buyer. Why? If Michael truly believes that the dealer who sold him the (wrong) coin is his friend, then I believe he has a responsibility to tell him. If I were the dealer and Michael didn't tell me, then I would begin to question our friendship.

 

Please tell me where it states in numismatic ethics that there is an implied or presumed right of non-disclosure. Sorry, Mark, but I believe that my allegiance should go to my friends.

 

Chris

I don't know precisely what Michael meant by "dealer friend". But regardless, as much as I believe in "standing by my friends", I also believe it would be wrong/improper to divulge the identity of a client to whom I had sold a coin. That is my impression regarding the right/proper way to conduct business - yes, I believe that there is generally an implied understanding of privacy. And I have spoken with numerous dealers and collectors who apparently feel the same way. I am quite surprised that you seem to feel otherwise.

 

By the way, the above has nothing to do with putting myself in a "bad light" with anyone, as after all, I did nothing wrong in the hypothetical, as far as I can tell. And I already mentioned in my initial post that I would contact my client and try to work something out. I guess we will have to agree to (strongly) disagree.

 

Okay, Mark, let's assume that you are aware that the "dealer friend" who sold you the coin is still very distraught over the missing and very valuable coin. He still doesn't realize that he had sold it to you by mistake. Let's assume that you contact the person who bought it from you, and he says, "Tough toenails!" Now what? Do you continue to allow your "friend" to agonize over its loss? Do you accept the so-called "implied" policy of non-disclosure to protect someone who might very well show that same contempt for you some day?

 

Chris

Chris, I would let my "dealer friend" know what I had learned about the coin and my client's refusal to do anything about the situation. If I couldn't get permission from the client to let the dealer have his contact information, I'd ask the dealer if he had any comments he wanted me to relay to the client. And if the client's attitude remained "tough toenails" I wouldn't do business with him again.
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
you buy a coin from a dealer friend who has gotten in a famous collection and after a year you finally realize that the coin sold was misattributed as a rare NC die variety large cent and this was the coin that the dealer never could find in the collection

 

you realize now it was misattributed and misplaced in a flip when you bought it from the dealer but this was not known to you or the dealer and you paid fair and square for it even though the dealer was looking for it and this coin is worth 100 times what you paid for it knowing now what you know about it

 

you have since sold the coin before discovering the true value

 

do you inform the dealer and if so do you tell him who you sold it to???

You certainly shouldn't tell the dealer whom the coin was sold to - for privacy considerations, if for no other reason. Beyond that, while I don't think any duty is owed to the dealer, I'd contact the person I sold the coin to and see if I could work something out. If I could, I'd share the good news with the dealer. If not, I'd ask the coin's owner for permission to let the dealer know his identity for purposes of contacting him directly.

 

I don't know, Mark. I think that one could count their true friends on one hand while coin-collectors are a dime-a-dozen.

 

Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't understand that comment with respect to my post which you replied to??

 

The problem with most people, today, is that they are "fair-weather friends". They don't stick around when the going gets tough. You should stand by your friends even if it means that you must tell them something that may put you in a bad light with someone else. Michael did not indicate that the person who bought the coin from him is a friend, so it doesn't appear there is the dilemma of being torn between two friendships.

 

Do you ever read the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist? Here you have so-called experts on numismatic ethics at odds with one another on a variety of topics. They can't ever seem to agree on what is right or wrong.

 

You suggested that Michael should not divulge the name of the buyer. Why? If Michael truly believes that the dealer who sold him the (wrong) coin is his friend, then I believe he has a responsibility to tell him. If I were the dealer and Michael didn't tell me, then I would begin to question our friendship.

 

Please tell me where it states in numismatic ethics that there is an implied or presumed right of non-disclosure. Sorry, Mark, but I believe that my allegiance should go to my friends.

 

Chris

I don't know precisely what Michael meant by "dealer friend". But regardless, as much as I believe in "standing by my friends", I also believe it would be wrong/improper to divulge the identity of a client to whom I had sold a coin. That is my impression regarding the right/proper way to conduct business - yes, I believe that there is generally an implied understanding of privacy. And I have spoken with numerous dealers and collectors who apparently feel the same way. I am quite surprised that you seem to feel otherwise.

 

By the way, the above has nothing to do with putting myself in a "bad light" with anyone, as after all, I did nothing wrong in the hypothetical, as far as I can tell. And I already mentioned in my initial post that I would contact my client and try to work something out. I guess we will have to agree to (strongly) disagree.

 

Okay, Mark, let's assume that you are aware that the "dealer friend" who sold you the coin is still very distraught over the missing and very valuable coin. He still doesn't realize that he had sold it to you by mistake. Let's assume that you contact the person who bought it from you, and he says, "Tough toenails!" Now what? Do you continue to allow your "friend" to agonize over its loss? Do you accept the so-called "implied" policy of non-disclosure to protect someone who might very well show that same contempt for you some day?

 

Chris

Chris, I would let my "dealer friend" know what I had learned about the coin and my client's refusal to do anything about the situation. If I couldn't get permission from the client to let the dealer have his contact information, I'd ask the dealer if he had any comments he wanted me to relay to the client. And if the client's attitude remained "tough toenails" I wouldn't do business with him again.

 

Ah, yes!

 

Collectors are a dime-a-dozen!

 

Friends are few and far between!

 

By the way Mark, I do have a lot of respect for your opinions just reading your comments on these boards. I guess what got me all "fired up" over this is that I know from first-hand experience the anguish this dealer is feeling. About 10 years ago, I misplaced a pair of 1999 Silver Proof Sets that I have never been able to find. I can only assume that one of my (not-so-close) relatives may have discovered them while visiting. I still haven't given up trying to find them, but that time is drawing near since I only have 8 days left before I must vacate the premises.

 

Chris

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MrEureka-migration

MrEureka-migration

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Posted

This seems like more of a practical dilemma than an ethical one. Regardless, I'd certainly talk to the seller and try to figure out a way to get the coin back for him. Besides being the helpful and decent thing to do, it would also eliminate the possibility that word will get back to him through other channels, and possibly in a way that makes me look like I pulled a fast one of some sort.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

Ah, yes!

 

Collectors are a dime-a-dozen!

 

Friends are few and far between!

 

By the way Mark, I do have a lot of respect for your opinions just reading your comments on these boards. I guess what got me all "fired up" over this is that I know from first-hand experience the anguish this dealer is feeling. About 10 years ago, I misplaced a pair of 1999 Silver Proof Sets that I have never been able to find. I can only assume that one of my (not-so-close) relatives may have discovered them while visiting. I still haven't given up trying to find them, but that time is drawing near since I only have 8 days left before I must vacate the premises.

 

Chris

Thanks Chris, and maybe we didn't disagree as strongly as I first thought. I'm hoping those sets will turn up in the next 8 days.
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