1995W Civil War Gold Proof Coin

[stgecko]

I'm looking to pick up this coin, pregraded at PF70. Does anyone know where a good place to look is? I've found one ungraded for 450$ but it comes only in the capsule ie no paperwork or container. I found another in the three coins set for 409$ but again ungraded. Ebay has one PF70 Ultra Cameo for 749$ but you must pay off of ebay. After the sale he sends you an invoice with directions(?) Gainesville has one PF70 Ultra Cameo at 950$. Now if you look at the pricing tables at PCGS you see that the PF70 is worth quite a bit of money even more so than the MS version. Any input on a good decent priced coin is appreciated.

[TomB]

I would suggest that you simply monitor ebay and look for one to pop up. Additionally, if it were for my collection, I would simply buy a raw one with original government packaging.

[jgrinz]

If you want a 70 COIN Purchase it ... It you want to just get a GOOD example buy it RAW and have it certified. It will probably be a 69 ...

 

I own both and the coins and according to numismedia are pretty similar in pricing with the MS being MORE valuable so says them because of lesser production numbers.

 

My feeling is the MS version will exponetially increase in value over time more so than the PF/PR version because of its production numbers ...ONLY 12,735 Made

 

My Two coins are below with numismedia value ..

 

1995-W CIVIL WAR $5, MINT STATE MS 70 NGC 1792757-001 $950.00

 

1995-W CIVIL WAR $5, PROOF PF 70 UC NGC 1517152-001 $810.00

 

 

 

 

 

[stgecko]

Ok here's where I get confused. I go to the PCGS registry website to look for pricing on the different grades. I show the Proof being worth 3850$ and the MS being worth 1250$. I know the coin I'm buying has a very fine strike with very nice frosty surfaces and the works with a grade of PF70 UC. I found a web site called Perfect Proof Coin Gallery and I think I'll get it from them. As a matter of fact I just completed the transaction while thinking about this post. But seriously why the big price differences across the many sources when I thought PCGS would be a good and somewhat accurate source of values. Did you get your prices off the "grey sheet?" I've never seen one but I like to use several resources when looking for prices.

Thanks for giving the matter some thought and I'll post the coin when it gets here.

[TomB]

PCGS cannot use the prices listed in the Greysheet since they are proprietary. Anyway, the Greysheet only lists prices for modern commems in original government packaging without any grade attached. I would assume that PCGS comes up with their prices in-house and that some of these prices might be listed simply to make folks feel good or to push the PCGS brand.

[SatTech]

Yeah, the PCGS price guide is what PCGS says they're worth, what the collecting public feels they're worth...well, that can be quite different. To get a feel for the going rate, put some that are true auctions (no BIN) on your watch list. After several are completed, you should have a ballpark number for bidding.

[stgecko]

I know it sounds naive but I didn't even think about there being another agenda as in PCGS's. I will watch several auctions in the future as I have more coins I'm looking at. What coin collector isn't always looking? Oh and I know I know the answer to this but I can't remember so I'll ask, what does BIN mean?

 

 

[Conder101]

Yeah, the PCGS price guide is what PCGS says they're worth,

But if it goes bad in the holder don't count on getting that value of compensation from them.

 

Also the website you mentioned specializes in NGC PF and MS 70 coins, not PCGS 70's. They don't list at and often sell for different amounts. Because of the way the market works you might want to compare the NGC 70's value with the PCGS 69's

[SatTech]

BIN = Buy It Now. Sometimes you can find good deals with these, but most of the time you can do better with true auctions.

[jgrinz]

Hmm they bammed my post because I used POST SALE EBAY DATA as an example of pricing ...

 

Anyway the jist is CONDER101 post is not accurate as 69 PCGS coins go for $300-400 and NGC 70 go for $8-900

 

 

[Conder101]

And what do PCGS 70's sell for?

 

The point I was trying to make was that you should consider an NGC 70 as a PCGS 69 and not pay PCGS 70 money for it ( even question paying NGC 70 money for it) because if you try to crack it and send it to PCGS (they won't do crossover on 70's) your NGC 70 is very likely to come back as a 69. Whereas a PCGS 69 if cracked and sent to NGC may come back as a 70. The original post specified a Proof 70 but did not specify a service. He needs to know that the market does not value these theoretical perfect coins equally. On most, if not all coins, they think PCGS perfect coins are more perfect than NGC perfect coins. (The original poster has only 50 posts to his credit and from the question and the way he worded it, I suspect he is not just a newbie to this forum but to the hobby as well. I was concerned that he not just buy a number because it is that number.)

[jgrinz]

Point taken ..

 

[stgecko]

Thanks everyone for your help. I ended up going with a MS70 coin. I got it for what I hope was a good deal, 613$ It's graded by NGC but that's fine. I got it not just for the grade but I really liked the full strike on the coin and it's overall beauty. I don't plan on selling it but keeping it for years and hopefully handing it down a generation or two later. In the mean time I get to enjoy it.

 

I can't believe I didn't know BIN as I've used it before.

 

As far as grading philosophy goes a 70 is suppose to be a 70 no matter who grades it. That is the new naive collector in me thinking. I own some PF69 uc's and I'll be a monkeys uncle if someone can show me the error keeping them from becoming a 70 coin.

Again thanks all and I'll include a photo later this week when the coin arrives.

[TomB]

You should understand that PCGS and NGC have their own, proprietary standards for what constitutes a PF70, PF69, etc...since the ANA does not explicitly state what the standard should be for these grades. Therefore, even though PCGS and NGC are far more similar than they are different, there will be areas where the same coin will not receive the same grade between services. The market partially reflects this in how it values coins graded by a given service, but in my opinion overestimates the true differences between services.

[stgecko]

since the ANA does not explicitly state what the standard should be for these grades.

 

Does this mean that my "The official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins" is vague at best? Is this not the definitive guide for graders including all the grading companies?

 

Just curious.

 

[BillJones]

Some of these Civil War coins came in a "union case" which was a reproduction of the hard photo cases that housed tin types and ambrotypes during the Civil War. these cases are really neat with a reproduction of a No Motto $10 gold piece on the outside.

 

I MUCH prefer nice examples of these coins in the union case to a coin in a boring old slab. These coins come VERY NICE. Anything below PR-68 would be an extremely low grade. To me buying these coins in slabs is rather silly.

[TomB]

since the ANA does not explicitly state what the standard should be for these grades.

 

Does this mean that my "The official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins" is vague at best? Is this not the definitive guide for graders including all the grading companies?

 

Just curious.

Yes, it means that the mid-to-upper MS and PF grades for US coinage are not defined by the ANA. This book works much better for circulated coinage, but for MS and PF coinage the definitions are incomplete, which allows each grading company to define each grade increment within the MS and PF regions. Therefore, although PCGS and NGC do not agree as to what constitutes certain MS and PF grades, neither is incorrect. They simply use different standards with the same nomenclature.

[cointagious]

Here's a recent eBay sale of a NGC PF70

 

NGC PF70

[stgecko]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Tom. You're right of course, the descriptions in the higher grades are a bit vague. I do like to use the pictures showing the areas of concern on the coins when I do try to grade the coins myself. Also using the "Photograde" book I believe they stop their grading descriptions at AU-50. So for us non-pro's all we can use is these books. I know they're working on grading software that is suppose to take the guess work out of grading but I feel we're a long ways off from that.