Fake coins/slabs in registry sets. a coming problem?

[Doogy]

Being that most of the fakes coming out have legit slab serial numbers that coincide with the same year/mintmark/type of the coin contained within, how does this affect the NGC and/or PCGS registry in the coming years?

 

I predict this may be a HUGE problem; especially if PCGS and NGC offers nice awards for winners. It would be some serious egg on either TPGs face if they came to find out that they had registry set winners with blatant fakes in them. Furthermore, one of the key things with the Reg sets is to allow the users to show off their hard work (and money), while remaining unseen.

 

This would create possibly security problems, as some registry set users may be asked to send digital photos of the coins in question to NGC/PCGS for verification. Then, you have to assume that many of these folks will not want to do so (regardless if they are fakes or not).

 

Add to that, the problem with most collectors being amatuer photographers to say the least, and NGC/PCGS may not even be able to identify whether or not a coin/slab is authentic based on photos. What do they do then; risk losing clients and market share by requiring more for verification? tough call............

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

The nature of collecting for registry sets will create conflicts for any counterfeit duplicates that are submitted for set registration. The owner of the aleady registered genuine coin will protest to NGC/PCGS when emailed to delist their coin. I would imagine that the solution will involve proving and maybe even resubmitting conflict coins to the TPG's for determination of genuity. This will certainly cause conflict among collectors but will assure the integrity of registry sets.

 

I keep receipts of all the coins that I have purchased with most of the more valuble or scarce issues having been purchased in auctions long before the scale of the present counterfeiting issue became widespread.

 

Also, access to auction dealer sites where they keep records of past purchases and images of the coin will leave a trail, if you need to address ownership and pedigree. Maybe now is the time to pedigree coins to their sumitters without noting the pedigree on the TPG site. This would make counterfeiting much more difficult because they would not be able to discern what collector originally certified the coin. Maybe a code added to the slab but not noted in publically accessable files would be sufficient. These Chinese dealers are not going to buy expensive original coins to countfeit them. Most do not have the capital, plus they would not know the slab code if they did not possess the actual genuine slabbed coin.

[MarkFeld]

Counterfeit holders, whether containing genuine or counterfeit coins, are potentially a huge problem for the hobby/industry. And while that applies to registry sets, it goes far beyond that, in terms of coins and significance.

[BankNote1]

I have found it is more fun collecting what I like than collecting for registry points in the first place. Mark is dead on about counterfeit slabs.

[CHABSENTIA]

Many of the Coins which I have collected have been in the Raw State. 90% of both my proof Silver Eagles and Mint State Eagles and also the 20th Anniversary set. Also about 65% of My Morgans.My Proof Sets from1968 and Mint Sets from 1970 are all in OGP.All of my American Gold Eagles were bought raw and slabbed a few months ago.

 

I recently had some Commemoratives slabbed and they were purchased raw from the U.S.Mint.

 

I just don't see the Counterfeit slabs as that much of a problem for me right now.

[Doogy]

Many of the Coins which I have collected have been in the Raw State. 90% of both my proof Silver Eagles and Mint State Eagles and also the 20th Anniversary set. Also about 65% of My Morgans.My Proof Sets from1968 and Mint Sets from 1970 are all in OGP.All of my American Gold Eagles were bought raw and slabbed a few months ago.

 

I recently had some Commemoratives slabbed and they were purchased raw from the U.S.Mint.

 

I just don't see the Counterfeit slabs as that much of a problem for me right now.

 

although now the counterfeiters are making American modern bullion coins, and slabbing them in fake slabs. here is my report from today.........

 

click here

[Oldtrader3]

I'm not sure how much different these Chinese entrepreneurs are than, say "The World Reserve Monetary Exchange" and their (2) page add in Parade magazine today selling a wrapped, quaranteed uncirculated, 425 gr. "Ballistic" roll of Presidential dollars (available for only 72 hours) for $124.00. After all, they come in a gold paper brick, quaranteed to keep them, mint, shiny new forever!

 

My wife's 92 year old exmother-in-law called me today from the retirement home to tell me that I only had (3) days to take advantage of this wonderful offer! I haven't been able to reach her since she called and I had a change to read the ad in Parade. I dearly hope that she nor any of the ladies at the home bought any of these ballistic rolls. I can not believe that our media has the gall to advertise this misantropic garbage. Pretty soon these chinese will have an ad in Parade magazine as well. Viva la american capitalism!!!

[TomB]

It would seem that a counterfeiter would want to stay hidden below the radar for as long as possible. Of course, once a counterfeit is sold then control over that counterfeit is lost, but one way to keep hidden longer would be to create coins that are not so attractive to a registry set. This is an imperfect plan, but might buy time.

[just-john]

I would think that to stop this it would only take a little work.First when you submit a coin for grading it gets a bar code number that can be tracked .If you send a coin in to NGC you need to be a member of the Collectors Society or a member of ANA both have member numbers .If you collect coins you should be a member of the ANA..All they would need to do is add your member number to the slab.When slabs change hands a simple three part form from NGC or Pcgs where each member acknowledge the sale give theIr member numbers and the slip or receipt is sent to NGS/PCGS and the records are updated. The new owner can send in the coin with their 1/3 of the form for ReHolder and update for the $5.00 FEE.

Simple buyer gets copy seller gets copy slab company gets copy and updates info

case closed

 

send check to justjohn somewhere in Arizona

[Conder101]

All they would need to do is add your member number to the slab.When slabs change hands a simple three part form from NGC or Pcgs where each member acknowledge the sale give theIr member numbers and the slip or receipt is sent to NGS/PCGS and the records are updated. The new owner can send in the coin with their 1/3 of the form for ReHolder and update for the $5.00 FEE.

Already done by ANACS back in 1972 - 1989. When a coin was certified it was registered to the submitter. Later when it was sold the buyer sent the certificate back with a small fee and ANACS would issue a new certificate with the coin registered to the new owner. Have you any idea how few certificates were ever sent back in? And the whole anti-counterfeiting thing depends on the records being kept up to date. Otherwise you soome have a whole lot of coins in the hands of owners with no paper trail at the TPG to show they are the ownerof that coin.

[just-john]

If the TPG would send the recording slip with the 3 copies with any new slab and the next buyer didn't follow through with the proper paper work completing the new sales records.

Well I wouldn't buy a graded coin for any amount that I wasn't willing to throw away or be afraid it could be fake.The TPG's would be showing good faith and if collectors didn't follow through on their end and still complained about Fakes in the market place it would just show what many already feel . Coin collectors are happiest when they can whine about something

[Oldtrader3]

If it was a requirement for sellers to provide a grading receipt with a special barcode that counterfeiters could not get a copy of, that is issued by PCGS/NGC when they grade the coin, it might help make this problem go away. IMHO, what was done with ANACS receipts back in the '70's is sort of irrelevant with today's counterfeiting issues.

[just-john]

The peace of mind would be worth the $5 Re submit charge with that would come a new 3 part receipt and if the coin is sold again repeat as needed.The TPG would have little or no trouble keeping up with the changes .If your spending hundreds or thousands on a certified coin and the person selling it is not the registered owner at the TPG and I'm buying the coin

my first thought would be WHY is it Fake is it Stolen??

If people would follow this simple formula it would greatly reduce Fake copy and it people got behind the Idea it would also stop some stolen coins in some instances.Who would spend large money with a person who is not the owner of that coin ?

[World Colonial]

You are completely correct that the counterfeiting is an important issue.

 

Howver, since I consider registry sets a marketing gimmick (and a smart one at that), I do not see any negative impact on them as being a problem for the hobby. Just as with counterfeit coins in counterfeit holders, its a problem for the grading service because it undermines public trust.