NGC and PCGS...

[Treeman]

I know I'd be persecuted across the street, but, hopefully, I can get some real opinions here...

Anyway, I've been a collector for over 30 years now, and started collecting slabbed coins around 12 years ago. In that time, the only coins I have had to return have been PCGS. I did keep one PCGS coin (AU Large Cent), but have since given that one to my niece for her Registry set. Overall, I have found that NGC coins are GENERALLY nicer, grade for grade, than PCGS. I know this goes against the grain, and I also realize that I have only seen a small percentage of all the slabs out there.

My question is this:

Why are most collectors willing to pay more for PCGS plastic? Is it just because of PCGS's esoteric stance on their Registry?

I have, up to now, been speaking of Classic coins. What about the Moderns?

I have often seen "NGC 70 = PCGS 69". In reality, anyone who has looked at a group of 69 and 70 coins (with a loupe), knows that some of the 69's will be nicer than some of the 70's. This is true with BOTH services.

2nd question:

What ever happened to "buy the coin, not the holder"?

I have seen lesser coins (but same grade on holder) sell for more money, because they were in PCGS plastic!

Is all of this simply due to PCGS keeping their Registry exclusive?

Personally, I will continue to collect NGC slabs, not because of any major grading standard difference, but simply because I find them more "collector friendly" in that they both recognize, and allow, PCGS coins in their Registry. Seems "big" of them to basically say, "there is a competitor that we can accept and respect".

Then again, all this is just my opinion, and I certainly could be "full of it" :-)

[harvey8542]

I dont know why there is the premuim but I love it because I can often get a great deal on a coin because of it being in a NGC holder.

[Doogy]

You kinda' have to know the series you collect, to properly ascertain whether or not a "plastic" has a premium.

 

TDN has found that his coins are more valuable on the market in PCGS, rather than NGC slabs.

 

Others have come to a similar conclusion based on the series/type they collect.

 

Conversely, you have the 'Millenia' auction coming up. This auction has the rarest coins in the world, in the highest state of preservation, and is being forecasted to shatter world coin auction records. Some of them used to be in PCGS plastic from high end collections, and were cracked out and ALL of them were submitted to NGC for grading. In this instance, Goldberg knew what would be better viewed as the "right" plastic for the market-at-large.

 

kinda' depends on what you collect, and if you've got a preference for one company over the other in spite of how the market views your collecting series.

[James_OldeTowne]

I know I'd be persecuted across the street, but, hopefully, I can get some real opinions here...

Anyway, I've been a collector for over 30 years now, and started collecting slabbed coins around 12 years ago. In that time, the only coins I have had to return have been PCGS. I did keep one PCGS coin (AU Large Cent), but have since given that one to my niece for her Registry set. Overall, I have found that NGC coins are GENERALLY nicer, grade for grade, than PCGS. I know this goes against the grain, and I also realize that I have only seen a small percentage of all the slabs out there.

In my honest opinion, this is such a variable that the generalization doesn't work for me. There are gorgeous coins in all holders, and horrors in all as well.

 

Why are most collectors willing to pay more for PCGS plastic? Is it just because of PCGS's esoteric stance on their Registry?

That is the biggest part of it.

[Doogy]

The market heavily recognizes both of the major TPGs, and have established a huge trust factor. . Here is a sample to prove it:

 

of the 14 coins that Heritage has sold that exceed $1 million dollars, all 14 are graded by PCGS (8) and NGC (6).

 

A $5 million dollar US gold coin was recently sold, graded by NGC. The second highest price ever paid for a coin

 

The Phillip Morse collection was auctioned by Heritage in 2005, and brought almost $20 million. most were graded by PCGS.

 

The Husak large cents were just auctioned, all graded by PCGS realized $10.7 million

 

The 'Millenia' collection by Goldberg just went online today, with most predictions saying it will crush the previous Eliasberg world record for a single auction. All of the coins in the sale are NGC graded.

 

So yeah, i'd say that the buying public trusts the two major TPGs enough to buy the coin AND the plastic.

 

(obviously i'm leaving out major auctions, but you get the drift)

 

[Conder101]

While the Registry may be a contributing factor, it can't be the reason for why the difference existed in the first place because it was there before the registry ever existed.

 

I think a big reason why it occurred was simply the fact that PCGS came first and had the market all to themselves for almost 18 months back in 1986 and 87. The established themselves as the top service and everyone, including NGC has had to play catchup ever since. And they have all had to contend with a problem defeating a circular logic problem. People have preferred to buy PCGS slabs because they bring higher prices, and they bring higher prices because people prefer to buy PCGS because they bring higher prices.

 

What became of the concept of buy the coin not the holder? Well it works for those people who have enough confidence in their abilities, but a lot of people would just rather put their faith in the plastic and the numbers and if they are going to do that they buy PCGS because they bring higher prices and well we've been here before.

 

And this type of collector also affects the fact that dealers will have more preference for the PCGS slabs. They buy them because they are an easier sell to many of their clients who don't want to take the time to learn about what they are buying and would rather just put their faith in the plastic. The dealers can sell them to them easier and for higher money because of that circular logic thing

again. None of this has anything to do with the coin, and everything to do with marketing and market perception.

[James_OldeTowne]

Personally, I will continue to collect NGC slabs, not because of any major grading standard difference, but simply because I find them more "collector friendly" in that they both recognize, and allow, PCGS coins in their Registry. Seems "big" of them to basically say, "there is a competitor that we can accept and respect".

I forgot to respond and say that I definitely agree with you on this! I buy far more NGC coins than PCGS coins, and am very happy to pay less for the exact same (sometimes better) quality if coin.

[Tradedollarnut]

It's a self fulfilling prophesy at this point - because PCGS holders bring so much more on the marketplace, coins are tried many many times for crossover before collectors have a chance to purchase them. This moves most of the nicer coins from NGC to PCGS and perpetuates the illusion that NGC coins are worth less.

[cpm9ball]

I don't buy the plastic. If I like a coin, I don't care whether it is slabbed by NGC or PCGS. I've gotten just as many good deals on PCGS slabs as I have with NGC slabs.

 

Chris

[DC Dawg]

Could some of the difference be that PCGS tends to do "market grading" where NCG seems to do more "technical grading?"

 

Also, what about the possibility of market manipulation by PCGS having their own price guide, whereas NGC purchases that service from a third party? What about the collector's market that Collectors Universe (owner of PCGS) runs allegedly on behalf of dealers of PCGS graded coins?

 

Hey... I like a good conspiracy theory!!

 

Scott

[just-john]

more money has been spent on plastic to the top 4 tpg's than all the coins auctioned in all the major sales in this century.All that came from the purchasing power of collectors who could have spent it on coins it a shame.But very good marketing just like now were starting to hear of rumors of a great 2008 silver melt down=== it marketing

[BillJones]

I buy the coin too, but the point is you can't get a good price for coins these days unless they are PCGS or NGC certified. Even I have reached the point where where I see an expensive raw coin, I have to wonder, "What's wrong with it?" Quite often there is a problem when you really look at the piece. Most of the good stuff (nice classic coins) has been slabbed at this point. The major exception is early U.S. copper because most of those colectors don't like slabs.

 

As for grading, both services have properly graded coins in the market place and coins that don't deserve to be in the holder with THAT label. You have look before you buy.

[Treeman]

"The major exception is early U.S. copper because most of those colectors don't like slabs."

 

Actually, Large Cents are my main focus, and certainly my favorites. I have a Dansco album for my raw coins, but I do get the higher graded ones in slabs. I have to admit, the Registry rekindled my passion for collecting. Though my set will never be near the top, it's fun to "compete" with others who share the interest.

 

[JCM-Houston]

Firstly, I've only been back in to seriously collecting for a year or so. I was fairly serious from the mid 80's up to the mid 90's then sold most of the things I had.

 

I really don't find much difference in quality or price between the two major TPG's, of my better coins they are about equally divided. In the modern stuff I do see a lot more Ikes and Kennedys in PCGS, they just seem to lab more PF69's so they are more likely to be seen.

[DJCoinz]

It's a self fulfilling prophesy at this point - because PCGS holders bring so much more on the marketplace...this moves most of the nicer coins from NGC to PCGS...

For coins valued at around $1000 or less this may apply somewhat but not nearly so much. Mid-range value coins bring right around the same in either holder and exceptional ones will bring more in either holder. Once you start heading for the stratosphere though, PCGS slabs will start bringing a few more dollars...but nice coins can still be found in either holder and savvy collectors will buy coins on their own merits.

[Frank Provasek]

Any collector should be very wary when the ANA grading standards for MS60 and above state ABSOLUTELY NO TRACE OF WEAR -- And PCGS's standards, from their grading guide, literally says Friction? Discoloration? WHO CARES?

 

 

 

 

 

[TheMightyDuke]

I dont mind the difference in pricing. I can find just as nice a coin, sometimes nicer, in an NGC holder. Both services have overgraded, as well as undergraded, coins in their holders. There WILL come a time that there wont be a big difference in price between comparable coins. I think if it werent for the proliferation of moderns garnering MS70's (perhaps NGC IS grading more 70's, but at the same time, perhaps PCGS is too shy to pull the trigger and give a 70 where its due), there would be a much smaller difference in pricing.

 

BUT, I have found bargains in both slabs. Buy the coin, but if its cheaper in an NGC slab, more power to you!

 

 

 

 

[Houston Investor]

I have always viewed all this fuss about who's plastic is worth more as a bunch of foolishness - but it can be a great deal for a grading service if they are considered the holy grail of certified coins and their member dealers who want to pay less for your coins because they are not in the "right" holder.

 

Different pockets of dealers have their own little rip off game. There's the crowd that will pay you less because a coin is not in a pcgs holder now there's gonna be another crowd that wants to sell you a coin for more because it has a certain sticker and so on. The thing is you don't have to play their game.

 

Once I was at a show and offered this dealer an ICG coin - he took out his blue sheet and made this really low ball offer because the ICG Bid is about 60% of the PCGS bid. I said nothing and asked him the price on a PCGS coin in his case. He qouted $150. I then asked him if he had one like it in ICG for $90 - he said "of course not, that would be way below Trends." I then told him to fxxx off.

 

Get the picture? In his own little two faced way he was ready to jump on my ICG coin if he could rip it for a 40% discount - but sell me an ICG coin at a 40% discount vs PCGS - no way. Then there is the insufficiently_thoughtful_person that will say something like "the NGC Bid is only......" like NGC has somehow sanctioned the bids in the bluesheet. And now you are gonna pay these guys some more money to put a sticker on your coin - ha ha they must be laughing at you all the way to the bank.

 

I like the NGC product and the idea I should sell it for less than PCGS is nonsense.

[realone]

I agree, it is definitely nice to get a discount when buying NGC graded coins assuming they are accurate for the grade. But I have to say I have returned more NGC coins than PCGS coins and that is after very notable experts have viewed them and opined on them and I mean noted (they are members here). Is it coincidence, who knows but i originally had more PCGS graded coins than NGC but that is changing and I have acquired more recently so they are evening up.

 

That being said, I collect H10c's, it is harder to see them in the NGC thick white holders as opposed to PCGS clear thinner holders. So that is something that continue to irk me, however zI benefit again from this because since h10c's look worse in NGC holders I get an additional discount for that too, so shhhhhhh and lets not spoil things.

[DJCoinz]

I have always viewed all this fuss about who's plastic is worth more as a bunch of foolishness - but it can be a great deal for a grading service if they are considered the holy grail of certified coins and their member dealers who want to pay less for your coins because they are not in the "right" holder.

 

Different pockets of dealers have their own little rip off game. There's the crowd that will pay you less because a coin is not in a pcgs holder now there's gonna be another crowd that wants to sell you a coin for more because it has a certain sticker and so on. The thing is you don't have to play their game.

 

Once I was at a show and offered this dealer an ICG coin - he took out his blue sheet and made this really low ball offer because the ICG Bid is about 60% of the PCGS bid. I said nothing and asked him the price on a PCGS coin in his case. He qouted $150. I then asked him if he had one like it in ICG for $90 - he said "of course not, that would be way below Trends." I then told him to fxxx off.

 

Get the picture? In his own little two faced way he was ready to jump on my ICG coin if he could rip it for a 40% discount - but sell me an ICG coin at a 40% discount vs PCGS - no way. Then there is the insufficiently_thoughtful_person that will say something like "the NGC Bid is only......" like NGC has somehow sanctioned the bids in the bluesheet. And now you are gonna pay these guys some more money to put a sticker on your coin - ha ha they must be laughing at you all the way to the bank.

 

I like the NGC product and the idea I should sell it for less than PCGS is nonsense.