Show Report-Silver Dollar Show, St. Louis, MO, 10/18/03

[DirtyGoldMan]

I spent about one and one-half hours at the Silver Dollar ghost town--I mean, coin show this morning. Some of the dealers I was hoping to see, including Legend, New World Rarities, and JJ Teaparty had already left. The Pinnacle table was open, but Mark Feld had already left. From what I heard, the dealer-dealer business was decent, but retail business was positively dead. If I were the promoters, I would consider relocating that show to the suburbs, or cancelling it entirely, because other than for a sporting event, downtown St. Louis is a destination which most people in the region avoid. Enough said.

 

There were more dealers than collectors, and I did not see a single retail purchase being made. The NGC people were complaining to one another that they were bored. Of the graders, the ANACS table had the most action. This might be because ANACS shows up for a lot of the smaller shows in St. Louis and perhaps have become the "collectors' choice" as a result. They are always very nice and patient and today told my friend not to slab three of his problem coins. I tried to stop by to say hello to JBStevens, but his table was actually quite busy, and I did not want to distract him from potential sales. He had some very nice toned coins and a lot of colorful Jeffersons.

 

We spent some time at old friend Jadecoins table. James and Dennis were both there were their nice selction of early type material. James said that their business had been very good. My friend decided to consign his 1795 Flowing Hair silver dollar with them, and they treated him very well. Apparently, they have some interesting PCGS stuff up on their website, if anyone is interested. They are also putting together a catalog of early US currency (18th century) and had some neat examples at their table.

 

As for branch mint/No Motto gold, pickings were pretty slim. The dealer that had the most was the Dalton Gold & Silver Exchange. As usual, most of their material was low-end, either raw, in PCI/SGS slabs, problem, or low-end for the grade. As an example, I have wanted to buy a circulated Charlotte half eagle, and an 1860-C caught my eye. it was in a SEGS XF-40 slab. That coin was a VF-20 at best, but they were still looking for near XF-40 money for it. While it was not cleaned, it was clearly not original surface (had been dipped), and I passed. Julian Leidman, an exception, had a number of nice, raw branch mint gold coins. He was talking with someone at his table when I was looking, and I never had a chance to get back. I saw very few coins that I was interested in owning (at any price!).

 

I did bring along two discard coins and made a trade with Broken CC for a 1844-O $5 NGC-53 which I need for my N.O. gold type set. It is the most common No Motto N.O. $5, but it was a nice coin for the grade with fewer than normal ticks/bagmarks. I had also consigned a 1907 PCGS-64 Saint $20 (the one I bought in a ICG-63 holder, dropped in the garbage can trying to peel the ICG slab from, sent to PCGS and it came back 64) in Scotsman's auction. I ended up selling the coin for about twice what I paid for it a few months ago. I was pretty happy--I thought it was low-end for the grade.

 

Overall, I had a good time. I am sorry for the dealers that the show was not very busy. My guess would be that the smaller time dealers, particulalrly those with mostly junk, did terribly (don't they always?). The higher end dealers may have done okay but only in the wholesale trade. I will be interested to see what Legend says about it in her report.

[DaveG]

Thanks for the report. Sorry to hear that the show was a disappointment.

 

By the way, what kind of garbage was in the can when you dropped the Saint?

 

(and does what you did qualify as "dipping"?)

[truthteller]

Great show report. I had a similar experience with the new Sacramento, CA show two weeks ago. New show to the area at the downtown convention center. Unlike St. Louis, downtown Sacramento is easily navigable, parking aplenty, and very secure. Unfortunately, the show was lacking in any retail activity, dealers were scratching heads. About 100+ tables, but no action. I think it takes a bit of heavy duty advertising before these new shows pick up steam.

 

TRUTH

[michael]

a great show report

 

your report is outstanding and would qualify for any top newspaper in the country with no editing needed

 

keep these insider show reports coming

 

i wish this report could be in the next coin world weekly mag and you do this as a regular once a month feature!

 

michael

[stman]

Great show report. I had a similar experience with the new Sacramento, CA show two weeks ago. New show to the area at the downtown convention center. Unlike St. Louis, downtown Sacramento is easily navigable, parking aplenty, and very secure. Unfortunately, the show was lacking in any retail activity, dealers were scratching heads. About 100+ tables, but no action. I think it takes a bit of heavy duty advertising before these new shows pick up steam.

 

TRUTH

 

Truth.... I was at the Sacramento show on the first day Friday. I thought it was slow because of Friday and figured it would pick up on Saturday. I guess not. To be honest, I went on Friday hoping it would be slow. I don't like fighting my way through crowds.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Dave,

 

It was dropped, not dipped. I am thinking about cracking and dropping a few more.

 

Michael,

 

Thank you for the compliment. I do not get to many shows, nor would I want to if it means spending any more time away from my family. When I do go, I try to make the most of it and share the experience with both message boards. Hopefully, others will do the same.

[James_OldeTowne]

I'd like to publicly thank SageRad for the consignment of the Bust Dollar. As a collector, I think it is an awesome coin, with near VF detail, and terrific character! Certain encapsulation companies might be too snooty to certify it, but we feel fortunate to have obtained this consignment, as the coin's historic merits far outweigh any alleged "problems" that a 200+ year-old coin might have.

 

The Silver Dollar Show was a very strange show, with extremely light traffic, and a lot of dealers spending most of their time napping or wandering between the snack bar, the bathroom, and the Thomas Roof Construction (??) display. Frankly, I'm at a loss as to the lack of retail traffic, since the weather was great, and Scotsman promoted the show with a full-page advertisement in the Post Dispatch.

 

The first night of the auction was, to be blunt, boring. A lot of generic copper and slabbed common coins, though we did end up stealing two coins. One of those was the ICG PR-66 three-cent silver. The coin has amazing color and is accurately graded. Things were hopping Saturday night. Ended up spending almost $30K (mostly for want-lists). What was hot? Not the free pizza! But for the coins we deal in, AU/BU TONED or BLAZING LUSTROUS bust halves were scorching hot. Example: 1830 PCGS MS-63, I paid $3000, or triple retail. It is in fact only MS-63, but this coin has astounding, intense luster that blows away ordinary MS-65 coins. It is one of the finest MS-63 bust halves I've ever seen. I also paid double retail for an 1801, 1802 and 1805 (uncertified). Most all of the bust halves were uncertified, but it didn't matter - everything nice went for moon money.

 

The ironic thing for us is that, it turned out to be our best show ever, by a long shot. All together, we transacted $70,000 of gross business, virtually all retail, which for us, is a staggering amount! (Typical for us would be $10,000 for a show this size.) Much of this was skewed because we sold quite a few coins to one customer that we've been working with for a long time, and had built up a stock ear-marked for just him, but aside from that, our retail sales were awfully good.

 

Overall though, from what I heard from other dealers, the show was terribly slow, and many dealers were packed up and gone by Sat. night. A couple of fellow dealers did report strong sales, but I guess most of theirs was wholesale. I do not believe the market is "hot", as a lot of big dealers claim. There may be expensive coins changing hands from time to time, but those coins don't seem to "stick" very long, almost like a hot potato, and I have to wonder how much of the high-end market is artificial, being dealer-to-dealer business.

 

Finally, let me report what I consider to be the most important thing to happen to us at the show. A collector approached us looking for Capped Bust half-dimes, saying he was new to the series. Turns out, he has decided to jump right in to collecting by variety, though he was brand new to attributing. He had been trying to attribute "by the book". It was one of those enjoyable opportunities where my experience in attributing paid off, as I was able to give this collector quite a bit of help learning how to attribute correctly and reliably, and he was very thankful for the help. So, the important thing is that our experience has helped add a new member to the growing ranks of collectors of early material, and that is good for the hobby!

 

Got to meet several forum members, both from NGC and PCGS, and to all of you , a big thank-you! Especially to those who enjoyed laughing about the Norweb coin, and making fun of a certain PCGS executive officer

 

James

[IrishMike]

Sounds like some of the experiences I heard about the Central States Show in St Louis. Is this just a bad place to attract retail business and if so why?

[ArtR]

Sounds like some of the experiences I heard about the Central States Show in St Louis. Is this just a bad place to attract retail business and if so why?

Mike:

I attended both of the Silver Dollar Shows, plus Central States, and the public attendance was down. Why I personnel don't know. Some locals claim it is un safe. From my point of view I have had no problems. I parked right across the street in a parking garage. Like any other large city I am sure there are areas that are unsafe at night, but then again Coin Shows are held in the day light hours.

 

I have walked to LaCledes Landing down by the river to eat after dark and have had no problems. Maybe I have just been lucky.

 

St Louis always use to be a great coin town as far as coin shows, but it seems the ones being held in the downtown area are having their problems.

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I live in St. Louis, and don't feel unsafe at all walking around downtown. If anything, I think St. Louis is surprisingly clean and user-friendly, compared to other cities of like age.

 

Let's be honest, I did about the last dozen shows that took place at Henry VIII, and the last three were pretty poor for traffic. That's been only about three years ago. Traffic was awful in Detroit a couple weeks ago, as well as Central State. The problem is not, in my opinion, related to "downtown St. Louis", but rather a "downTURN" in the market.

 

I'll be blunt - the REAL coin market is FLAT. I'm not talking about the artificial market created by big dealers who buy and sell to each other. Coins of that kind, we call them "hot potatoes". You buy a $50,000 coin for stock, it doesn't sell, so you wholesale it for $50,500 to another dealer. It doesn't sell for him, so he wholesales it for $51,000 to someone else, etc. These don't represent the real market to me. Those coins don't "stick" to a buyer for his collection. Of course, once in a while, such coins do stick, but if you watch what coins are popping up in Heritage, Superior, B&M, and in the inventory of major dealers, you see many of the exact same coins appearing over and over.

 

I consider the real market to be coins from $10 to $2000 or so, and there, the market is mostly FLAT. There are exceptions. Key date Barbers are selling easily in F-12 and above. CHOICE bust material sells quickly. Large cents with luster don't stay around long, and the mainstay Lincolns, Buffalos, IHC's, SLQ's, those are doing OK.

 

Sorry for the rambling. Hopefully, it gives some insight to how things look from the dealer's side of the table - at least from a small-time dealer.

 

James

[ArtR]

I live in St. Louis, and don't feel unsafe at all walking around downtown. If anything, I think St. Louis is surprisingly clean and user-friendly, compared to other cities of like age.

James, I agree. I don't live in St Louis, but have never had any thing happen to make me think it was unsafe.

 

I was just passing on the information I received from locals, when questioning them on their opinions for the very low turnout public wise at the Silver Dollar Show.

[IrishMike]

Interesting, I don't know a thing about downtown St Louis, I was just curious why neither show seemed to do well. Not sure the market is flat. Admittedly the show we have each month in South Bend is very small, in the past few months the dealer tables have doubled and I see way more retail buyers attending then in past years.

[ArtR]

Mike:

The few shows I have attended this year have also had good turnouts, except for St Louis.