How many collectors/investors are "buying the story"?

[shirohniichan]

During the tech stock boom of 1998, I heard promoters saying, "The world will always need new technology, so even at these high price levels tech stocks are a great deal. They have nowhere to go but up." Critics called this "selling the story." Yes, even granted that new technology will always be sought after, one has to realize that not all high tech companies will succeed in delivering it. Even the ones that succeed will not always reap the same kinds of profits they do at their peaks.

 

With some of the sky-high prices we're seeing for rare coins at auctions, we hear promoters selling the same kind of story. "Wealthy collectors will always want the best coins, and there just aren't enough to go around. Price have nowhere to go but up." As we saw back in 1980-81, prices did go anywhere but up. Common-date "Gem BU" Morgans went from $350 to $50 and many were left holding the bag.

 

Are collectors and investors in the current market buying the story? If so, at what level? Is it only a few at the top end, or does it go further than that?

[WoodenJefferson]

Good topic…just one point of view here.

 

I am completely dumbfounded at some of the prices collectors are willing to pay for modern coins being massed produced strictly for the collector by the Mint. There is no way these prices can keep quickly rising and maintaining a level never ever seen by any older “minted for circulation” series.

 

I can understand the precious metal coins such as gold and platinum increasing in value, but the silver bullion coins in some sets are just through the roof. I maybe cynical or a tight wad, but you’ll never see me purchasing anything filled with silver for more than 10-20% more than what the mint originally sold it for on release day.

 

Get mad, get angry at me…I’m way to set in my “rational” ways to change as quickly as the prices seem to be doing.

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't listen to stories about coins....I simply buy what I like at a price that seems fair to me......and the price guides and other collectors opinions don't mean squat to me in the end

 

P.S. I agree with the sentiment about moderns being overpriced and while I won't be junping in....I hope other just simply enjoy what they are purchasing without the worries of there potentially being some investment motives behind their purchases.

[James_OldeTowne]

Are collectors and investors in the current market buying the story?

This seems to tie in with the idea of seeing coins as a financial investment first, and a hobby second. While I think that's a viable way to approach coins, it doesn't work best for me. I think there are safer, better and more lucrative ventures to invest in than coins (stocks, etc.).

 

On the other hand, I think you are right - there will always be those drawn to coins because the market over the last twenty years has pretty much only risen. Coins are easy to market, easy to store, easy to ship, and just an all around easy business to get into, so I think there will be no shortage of high-pressure sales, and no shortage of buyers willing to succumb to high-pressure sales tactics.

 

Edited to add: Actually, I think "collectors" seldom fall for these sales pitches. Most of the people I hear of falling for the pitch seem to be inexperienced in coins.

[Jeffrey Cardona]

Some of the values are surpisingly high.....take a look at the 2006 Ben Franklin "Scientist" and "Founding Father" coins. The PF-70 are going in the $200 range. CRAZY! Am I happy that mine graded at PF-70?....damn straight I am! But I don't collect em to sell at a later date for the profit....I do it because the coins are beautiful...except for the bald eagles...butt ugly those coins.

 

I never will sell my collection. I just want to pass it on down to my kids and hopefully they will continue to add to it after me.

[CHABSENTIA]

I guess it depends on your source. The 2008 Silver Eagles in MS70 and a ANACS holder were the first to come out on HSN and were $349.00.This is ridiculous. A month later they were in PCGS holders on EBAY for $195.00 . I have seen them on EBAY lately for about $179.00 which is almost half the original price.They are now on the T.V.Coin programs for about $249.00.

 

 

As long as people pay these ridiculous prices then there will always be people who will charge them.I have mentioned some of the excessive prices on Teletrade from time to time..

 

I have been needing a 1880S in MS65 for some time. I keep trying on EBAY and I always check the Morgan Prices or whatever area I am interested at the time. If I cant get it at my price then I walk away. Every once on a while you get lucky.

 

I have seen it from $130.00 to $160.00 including postage. Over the week end I went a little further and picked up a 1880S PL MS65 in a NGC holder for $170.00 including postage.

 

Check different sources for prices and values and bid/buy accordingly.

[shirohniichan]

I don't listen to stories about coins....I simply buy what I like at a price that seems fair to me......and the price guides and other collectors opinions don't mean squat to me in the end

 

This works when you really know a series. I was underbidder at three times Grey Sheet 5 years ago on a coin I knew was much scarcer than commonly thought. I would not have been rash to have been high bidder at 4 or 5 times sheet.

 

This is a terribly dangerous strategy to take if you haven't spent the time necessary to know the coin in question. I had already spent 5 years in the series at the time of that auction, so I knew what a reasonable value for the coin was. If you're new to the series you're buying, don't pay moon money just because you want it at the time. It could dampen your enthusiasm for collecting if you ever need to sell.

[jackson64]

I don't wanna tick anyone off either but I could see scenarios where those PF70 moderns and ASE's are selling at $30-40....I'm dumbfounded when anyone pays over $1000 for a coin less than 20 years old that has a mintage near a hundred million..or even a billion...and for proof Commems and ASE's..they are ALL pristine..68's are rarer than 70's for most..

 

I believe the modern market will crash..not hoping for it..just my gut feeling

[Just Bob]

If you're new to the series you're buying, don't pay moon money just because you want it at the time. It could dampen your enthusiasm for collecting if you ever need to sell.

 

Very sound advice. (thumbs u

[just-john]

I'm lucky with my eye I can't tell a MS or PF 70 from a MS or PS 69.With the modern mint Gov Com or eagles silver gold or plat my self I would leave them in the original packaging.

That way for every 2 or 3 i don't submit pays for the next one with silver.With gold or plat don't buy from the mint go to a company that sells bullion unless you want the proofs

just my 2 cents

[Oldtrader3]

My dad was a Canadian stock market mining stock promoter and he always said 85% of the people are wrong 85% of the time when calling markets. That percentage includes "professional" market analysts. Look at the batting averages of Wall Street analysts, consider also that most of them are 25 y.o. MBA's who don't know a hockey puck from a cow pie. Most of these people IMHO, have an agenda and a vested interest which interferes with their vision of reality.

[World Colonial]

I think the answer depends not just which story but which stories you are "buying" or "selling" because there are potentially many of them. Since my outlook believes that we are in the beginning stages of a credit contraction and a recession that either has or will shortly begin and that will be much worse than conventional thinking economists and financial professionals believe, I expect the entire coin market to correct. But some areas will correct far more than others and if I am wrong, areas that are over extended could still fall substantially even if coins as a whole do not

 

Now what exactly would trigger a substantial market decline? There is an article I read (either on the internet or possibly in a coin magazine, I cannot remember) where this person did their university masters thesis on the coin market price trends. The highest correlation they found in their data (I believe back to the 1960's or even further) was with the price of silver, not gold, inflation rates or other attributes. This is not what the author expected and though there is some intuitive logic in here, not what I would have either though the coin market has boomed recently with metals and did so in 1979/1980.

 

I'll take this at face value but there are a couple of others I will add. First, silver itself is sensitive to economic conditions and economic conditions are sensative to credit conditions. And since credit trends are currently bearish with the rate of growth slowing and some areas in outright contraction (think mortgages and outstanding commercial paper), this is a negative for all asset prices because the most likely explanation for the high correlation between all asset classes until recently is the credit mania.

 

Another factor, also economically related, is employment. Coins are an entirely discretionary purchase, and at least for most of us, we depend upon our jobs to provide the discretionary income to add to our collections. Job growth has slowed recently and a continuation of this trend or (likely in my opinion) a contraction could have a substantial impact on coin prices.

 

Even if what I describe is valid or occurs, its true that coin prices do not have to fall, but it is likely that they will. And the weaker the collector base and the more overextended the coin is from a price standpoint, the greater the downside risk. Here are four categories in the coin market for your "stories" for the collector or "investor":

 

The first are modern coins including commemoratives, proofs, bullion and business strikes in high or ultra high grades, mostly or all from the US. As others have commented here, these coins are absurdly overpriced given their relatively scarcity. Two specific examples that immediately come to mind are that 2003-W American Eagle PR-70 that sold for $36,000 on Teletrade and that 1960's Lincoln MS or PR-70 cent that (I believe) sold for $30,000 to $40,000. If those two coins lost 90% to 95% of their value, they would still not be cheap. Many others could lose slightly less but still substantial amounts.

 

Another coin in this area that I also consider overpriced though it is very popular is the 1995-W Silver Eagle. It "only" has a mintage of 30,000 but given that 99.9% of them must still exist in very high grades, it could fall substantially if even a small percentage of them came onto the market due to financial necessity.

 

I view this as a middle class market which is very susceptible to both credit conditions and the job market. It has not happened (yet) but there is a question of how many of the people we read about who are experiencing financial stress such as those with the housing market are coin collectors. I do not know the answer to that but my suspicion is that they would most likely be collectors of these items because the coins, even though ridiculously overpriced individually, are within reach of the typical collector. (I have no evidence of this, it is just my suspicion.)

 

The second area is US generics such as Morgan and Peace Dollars plus gold Liberty, $10 Indian and $20 St Gaudens. Others who follow these coins are in a better position to comment, but in the past in this type of environment, they were big winners from both increasing metals prices and premiums to bullion. In a falling market, they will be supported by their metal content to some extent (especially gold) but could still fall substantially due to a reversal of what I just described.

 

I view this as more of an "investor" market than any other area. And though these people are presumably more affluent than the buyers of the first group, I think it is highly like that there are more overleveraged speculators in this area who could be foreced to sell into a falling market to cover losses in other areas or as a result of financial stress generally

 

The third area is high grade and more expensive US classics. Because of their cost, they are (presumably) owned by more affluent collectors and investors. I also suspect that they are more likely to be owned by "old" money who would be more inclined and could afford to keep them even in a down market. While I still think that there are many overpriced coins in this area (primarily conditional rarities), they are not nearly as overpriced as the first two categories and the collector demand for them is much greater. (Or at least it will be when people are worried about their solvency.)

 

The fourth area is high grade and high demand world coins. Perhaps I'm showing a bias to these because I collect some of them (though hardly the most expensive since I cannot afford them). But from a financial standpoint, on balance these are by far the least overvalued given their current prices, relative scarcity and current plus potential demand. Examples of these include Canadian, English, Australian, and Russian coins plus others that are still very popular but in less demand such as the South Africa ZAR and Spanish colonial pillars that I collect. In a coin bear market, some or all of these would or might fall (plus being susceptible to their individual dynamics since their liquidity and market size is much smaller than for US coins) but the potential price declines are much less relative to US coins due to their current prices.

 

So to summarize my answer to your question, I believe it is all across the board, just more in some areas than others.

 

 

 

[Coin]

Take-er slow and steady . There's no need to try to get all the coins now at any price , the rich an uneducated buyers can't live forever and their spoiled kids will eventually get them and hock the entire she-bang for p-nut money just to get the cash-out to spend and maintain their high maintenance life styles yet another day .

 

Ever heard of cycles ? Real Estate cycles and the building cycles go hand-in-hand....reccession and the search for a safe investment vehicle goes hand-in-hand....you get the point ?

What sells high one day , is bought back cheap the next , even gold and silver .

 

The money is made during the points where the value outpaces...so take your time . If you can't get it today , I guarantee that you will be able to pick it up before the next swing as , by then you'll be more educated and savvy about it.

 

Collections get sold off all the time...EVEN the 1913 Liberty head nickel....it was high , but available if you had the 5 mil to get it....ok , there are some that will continue to climb in value....but if you can't swing the 5 mil today...do you think you'll swing it tommorrow?

 

I mean really , take your time and buy what you buy , don't kick yourself about the prices of the hobby overall , concentrate on your niches and levels...buy correctly and you'll be able to recoup later .

 

If it all bottoms...hold what you got and wait for the next swing to sell . This hobby will go through what the sports cards have gone through , the comics are going through now , etc.....ask yourself this , if the government went to a cash-less system , say some kind of electronic debit system based upon SSN's or such and there were no longer any coinage or paper notes , how long do you think people will continue popping out $60,000 for a little ole coin , no matter what it is?

 

The big cats and promoters have all forgotten who the 'hobby' is really made up of...us the little guys an gals who pulled coins out of our pockets to start off.....some of us got wealthy and then greedy and wanted the 'bragging rights' and paid way toooo much for 'Trophy" coins...whup-t-too...there will always be those kind of people around too....and eventually they will be back to buy and brag and pay stupid money for coins , rather than enjoy a simple hobby.

 

What you are worried about is coin investors , not hobbyists .

[Dcoin]

In a way it's nice being a small fish in the pond. My budget is my budget and I collect what strikes my fancy.

 

Economic trends, market fluctuations, etc. are all pleasant hypotheticals in my collecting world.

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't listen to stories about coins....I simply buy what I like at a price that seems fair to me......and the price guides and other collectors opinions don't mean squat to me in the end

 

This works when you really know a series. I was underbidder at three times Grey Sheet 5 years ago on a coin I knew was much scarcer than commonly thought. I would not have been rash to have been high bidder at 4 or 5 times sheet.

 

This is a terribly dangerous strategy to take if you haven't spent the time necessary to know the coin in question. I had already spent 5 years in the series at the time of that auction, so I knew what a reasonable value for the coin was. If you're new to the series you're buying, don't pay moon money just because you want it at the time. It could dampen your enthusiasm for collecting if you ever need to sell.

 

Yes I think that's a nice addition to what I wrote because newbies might take the same approach and get burned. I consider myself extremely knowledgable in what I collect and I have a good grasp of the market values for the coins I trade in.......otherwise....there is a lot of risk playing with pretty toners when you don't know what your looking at....

[rons]

world colonial, that was a well written and thoughtful analysis of the future possibilities/probabilities. None of us can see the future but looking to the past does give us some perspective. Thanks for sharing your insights. Great thread

[BillJones]

I agree with your comment about "buying the story," and I must confess that I might be one of the collectors who are buying it. I've paid some some record prices, for me, for some older coins that I've wanted to add to my collection for a long time. I've also watched the coins in my collection appreciate in price to levels higher that I could ever have believed. Sometimes I feel foolish not taking the profits, but I simply enjoy the hobby too much. For me coins are luxury goods that bring me more pleasure than other “opulent items.”

 

The main support that I can give for paying the high prices is that I know the TOTAL number of survivors of some of the coins I’ve purchased is low. With modern issues there are often millions of survivors. The only claim those coins have to “rarity” is that fact that grading service X (usually PCGS) has graded only a small number of pieces at the very top grades. The coins that I collect often have a TOTAL population that is at most in the hundreds. In the grades that I buy, which would be viewed as “high end collector quality,” the numbers go down to 100 pieces or less.

 

People should never buy into the concept that wealthy people will always be buying high end coins. People need houses a lot more than they need coins, and the total housing market dwarfs the coin market. Still house prices were driven up to insane levels by excessive speculation, and now they are coming down. The same will be true of coins, especially very common coins in "uncommon condition."

 

Still for the collector there are two things to consider. When the melt down comes, how extensive will it be? And when the melt down does come, what will there be available to buy? I can tell you from experience that when the coin market goes down, the quantity and quality of material that is offered is usually poor for a while. People who are financially secure will hold on their material. It doesn’t mean anything that a low price for a rare coin is published in a price guide. If the coins are not offered, you can’t buy them.

 

As a young collector I used to look at the prices in the Red Book and think, “Gee, someday when I have money, I’ll be able to go to a coin dealer and buy some of those coins.” Later I learned that listing a price does not mean the item is available. Sometimes it takes years to find it.

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I think that most of them with a BA are those who learn the basics but are incapable of applying them. Most colleges do not teach applications.

 

 

On exception is the Wharton School which consists of real life applications.

 

My Father was wealthy by most standars and only graduated from High School but he understood the mechanics.

 

At the same time, he understood the need to get a College education as a means of getting your foot in the door and paid for the Collge education of any Son and Grandchild as long as they got the grades.

[CHABSENTIA]

True. The old days are gone and the age of Instant gratification is here. My Family could well afford it but when I got my First Car I had to pay for it . My Father cosigned for me with the knowledge that he could revoke it.

 

While my father was in the Navy for four during World War II my mother went to work as a Switch Board operator for the Santa Fe Railroad and when my father got out of the Navy my grandfather got him a job on the Santa Fe Railroad and they both continued to work. My Father invested their Money and although we.

lived good it was not by spending every penny,

 

My father would buy a home and then when they could afford a better home they would buy that one and rent the previuos ones etc,.

 

 

During that itme of growth my Parents oonly had one car and depending on who went to work first then the other would drive them etc. Today each has to have a big SUV and large Payments.

 

Don't know what they call it today but back then it was "keeping up with the Jones "s

 

Meanwhile the Kids think it is their Birth right to have a Car when they turn 16.

 

Some time ago when it was time for one of the Fords to take over the Ford Motor Company. I believe it was Willam Ford. William Ford was reaslistic enough to know that he was not capable of running the Company and brought in Lee Iacooca.

 

It was unherad of for the most part to bring an outsider into the such a large Family owned business but he recognized the need for a Professional until he could take charge.

 

Children see the Values of their Parents today and also want that instant gratification.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

I don’t know about “keeping up with the Joneses.” There have been a couple times in my collecting life when I thought that I had assembled a pretty significant collection of something. Then I had a chance to see the “world class” collections of things like half cent die varieties, and learned very quickly that I was nothing but a small to medium fish in a very big pond.

 

I collect what pleases me and enjoy spreading knowledge. Beyond I’ve given up on “keeping up with the Joneses” even though I’m one of the clan.

[Coin]

...............While my father was in the Navy for four during World War II my mother went to work as a Switch Board operator for the Santa Fe Railroad and when my father got out of the Navy my grandfather got him a job on the Santa Fe Railroad and they both continued to work. My Father invested their Money and although we.

lived good it was not by spending every penny,

 

My father would buy a home and then when they could afford a better home they would buy that one and rent the previuos ones etc,.

 

Sounds like you had Common-sense industrious and value sensitive parents ...I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that they taught you how to handle your business whereas , today , with a majority of both parents working , there are children that do not have this benefit and are raised by TV or autopilot or peers , and those end up going with the herd for the most part.

[Treeman]

As much as I agree with Moderns being common...

 

"With modern issues there are often millions of survivors. The only claim those coins have to “rarity” is that fact that grading service X (usually PCGS) has graded only a small number of pieces at the very top grades."

 

Couldn't the same thing be said about Morgan Dollars?

 

Another thing... if the new collectors like the modern stuff in 70, there is a chance that they will continue liking the modern stuff in 70. It's all about what's popular, and supply and demand of same.

 

Myself, yes, I overpay for Proof Kennedy's for my Registry set, just because it's fun, and I enjoy the coins. Of course, what I really like are Large Cents, but I certainly can't afford to get them very often! So, I scratch the "coin itch" with the overpriced (but still much cheaper) Kennedys.

[Coin]

I collect what pleases me and enjoy spreading knowledge. Beyond I’ve given up on “keeping up with the Joneses” even though I’m one of the clan.

 

I hear ya .....and just to clear up my points from the first reply posting , I would be remiss if I did not say that those that can either afford to buy at whatever price and/or know how to , or had , bought right to start with are more hobbyist in my book (even though equipped with an edge over most unknowledgeable investors when it comes time to sell or upgrade , for the most part ...the investment part is more over part of the deal and may or may not take precedence) .

 

....and yes , there are those that make their primary living in the 'biz' , so I'm not raking the investors over the coals versus everyday Joe hobbyists . The infrastructure benefits both sides .

 

Also , when the markets slows to a crawl , yes I completely agree , there does seem to be a 'drying up ' of the bottomless wells of availibility for acquisitions....except for estate sales which never dry up as people die everyday... (late 80's I saw Brick and Mortar shops disappear from the planet ) , but in the late 90's ( within a decade) the steam picked up and it's still rolling along today.

 

One other note , I've got written instructions for the disposal of my coins and other hobby related assets , which my grown children have no interests in ( one is an artist , the other studying to be a geneticist ), so , cars , coins , notes , service memoriabilia , rental properties under LLCs , municipal bonds , etc are in a subsection of my Will and final instructions ,which my Lawyer helped me with .

[BillJones]

Couldn't the same thing be said about Morgan Dollars?

 

It could be, but I have a lot more confidence in the Morgan dollar market that I do in the modern coin market. Morgan dollars were going strong before there were slabs, and there are a couple dates (e.g. 1893-S and 1895-O for example) that are scarce in high grade.

 

You are not going to like this remark, but I'll make any way. The supply of high grade modern coins that bring big money is mostly controlled by PCGS. They can keep the supply down by simply assigning grades like PR-70 D-Cam to fewer coins.

 

With Morgan Dollars they could try to play that game, but won't wash. If they over grade the coins, the collectors and dealers who are in the know would note an act accordingly. If they under graded the coins, NGC would pick up the slack, and grade the coin properly.

 

When it comes to these high grade modern coins, PCGS has a unique market position. Given that, collectors and speculators should be aware of that and realize that PCGS is in the position to pull the rug out from under them. And, oh yes, the difference between PR-69 and 70 is so small that could it could fall either way. AND never forget that a PR-70 can go bad in the holder. That last comment goes double if the coin is made of copper.

 

I found some interesting comments across the street under the topic "numismatic regrets." It was interesting to note that there are some folks over there who are now sorry that they paid big bucks for the some the modern coins they own. Now they have learned that the modern coin market can be a "one way" deal where you pay big bucks to get in, but receive a lot less when it's time to get out.

[Coin]

I found some interesting comments across the street under the topic "numismatic regrets." It was interesting to note that there are some folks over there who are now sorry that they paid big bucks for the some the modern coins they own. Now they have learned that the modern coin market can be a "one way" deal where you pay big bucks to get in, but receive a lot less when it's time to get out.

 

Agree Agree Agree

 

Also , consider with Morgans Dollars what happened to the so-called rarities when the Gov't held the GSA sales and suddenly what was rare and cost big $ , became common-like overnight =big drop in price tags .

Although it is unlikely that a large enough hoard of rare date Morgans are going to pop up in numbers like at the GSA sales , ya just never know when someone could come forward with a bag of CC Morgans in MS and knock the prices for a loop....but that is just one little factor outside of the original post of whether we are "buying the Story"....I buy the coins , but not the stories . Sometimes ya just gotta 'pull-the-trigger' and get a coin you want , but always make sure it is the one you are aiming at first.

[just-john]

2003 w number graded 15523 by NGC number graded 70 = 5757

Shield Five Cents proof 's 1866 thru 1883 thats 18 yrs total graded by NGC= 7444 no PF=69 or PF=70

Lincoln cents to get to the number in proofs graded 15523 you would have to go from 1909

to 1960

more than all the buffalo nickel proofs graded

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Winged Liberty proof graded

Roosevelt proof dimes before 1950

 

Look at the numbers rare for the grade there more 2003 w proof 70 dollars than most of the

pre 1950 proof coins graded and if you were to add in the 15523 total graded it would be more than all the proofs before 1950

its nuts or is it marketing //???

[World Colonial]

Economic trends, market fluctuations, etc. are all pleasant hypotheticals in my collecting world.

 

This is an interesting and I believe, common perception among people generally. My following comments are not directed to you but I do want to reply to this generically.

 

The original post asked about people who are likely to have financial regrets as a result of "overpaying" (since there is no such as thing as absolute value) for their coins.

 

One of the main points in my first post here is that, if my expectation about the economy is correct, a lot of people will be selling their collections and it will not be because it is voluntary but because they are forced to raise cash to pay their bills, whatever the underlying reason. Though I do not know who the coin collectors are among them, there are a substantial number of Americans (and others in other countries) who are overleveraged or have few discretionary financial resources. That is who is this is going to happen to first though they may think they are safe now.

 

Also, even those who are not.forced to sell out of necessity may do so out of fear. That can and does happen in any market. They may do so to lock in profits before prices fall further or because they are worried about their job or the economy generally.

 

One of the questions that I believe every collector has to ask themselves is whether they can afford to own the coins they have under adverse financial circumstances. The collector owns them now but can they afford to keep them? This is particularly relevant if coins represent a disproportionate amount of their assets or net worth, however subjective that may be.

 

Of course, "adverse" is itself subjective but if the answer is "no" or "I do not know" then in all likelihood that person is susceptible to the fear I just described.

 

For me the answer is I can probably keep them, but there are selective coins I am in the process of selling to take some money off the table. They are not the most important coins in my collection to me (which I will keep if at all possible) but still items I would rather not sell. I might be able to buy them back later at a cheaper price raw (since I sell them graded for more) or I might not. But I consider it a logical trade-off given the amount of "blood, sweat, and tears" it actually takes me to earn that money in my job and then pay taxes on.

[World Colonial]

2003 w number graded 15523 by NGC number graded 70 = 5757

Shield Five Cents proof 's 1866 thru 1883 thats 18 yrs total graded by NGC= 7444 no PF=69 or PF=70

Lincoln cents to get to the number in proofs graded 15523 you would have to go from 1909

to 1960

more than all the buffalo nickel proofs graded

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Winged Liberty proof graded

Roosevelt proof dimes before 1950

 

Look at the numbers rare for the grade there more 2003 w proof 70 dollars than most of the

pre 1950 proof coins graded and if you were to add in the 15523 total graded it would be more than all the proofs before 1950

its nuts or is it marketing //???

 

Yes, it is marketing but it is also insane. I previously mentioned the 1995-W PR-70 silver Eagle which sells for what? $10,000? $15,000? (And a PR-69 would still sell for thousands.) Here are some items you can buy instead with that money:

 

From US coins:

 

Many or most Liberty Seated proofs prior to 1858;

An uncirculated Draped Bust half dollar

A low-end mint state $20 US Assay Office Territorial gold

 

From world coins:

 

Probably an 1846 mint state Ecuador Capped Bust 8 Reales. (This design is similar to the US one);

A Spanish colonial cob "royal" 8 reales or maybe two of them

An 1839 UK proof crown

The 1770 Bolivia Pillar dollar NGC MS-64 (it is on a dealer site but sold for $11,000 at auction a few years ago)

Most of the complete South Africa KGV proof sets (8 coins) which have mintages of 62 or less

 

Now here is a rhetorical question. Which is the better deal?

[BillJones]

To me the 1995-W silver eagles are easily the most overpriced coins in the world. With a mintage of 30,125 and a survival rate of virtually 100% in Gem Proof condition, the coin is anything but rare on any level. Yet we see these absurd prices.

 

The only thing good I can say about this piece was that it looked cool with it was in the mint issued case with all of the bullion gold and silver coins together. Otherwise it is an overpriced absurdity that has ruined the completeness of many silver eagle collection

 

[carson city]

In another 50 years from now, the W mintmark may approach the collectability of the CC mintmark----stay tuned.