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For the VAM Guys...

Started by Bruceswar,

15 posts in this topic

Bruceswar

Bruceswar

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I was sent with 10 Morgans I was supposed to help an older man move. Anyhow these are all CC dollar, which is the good part. 9 GSA's and 1 Loose 85 CC. All the coins are UNC. So in an effort to help this family friend out I have been doing as much research as possible. I had seen these coins back about 2 years or so. Well I noticed the 1885 CC had some clashing going on so I said lets take a gander at Vamworld.com Best move I ever made. But now I am left with some questions. Not being much of a VAM person I am a bit lost as to the rarity ratings and how they hold up today and which one may have changed one way or another. These Morgans have not seen the light of the market since the late 70's early 80's. Anyhow here is a list of what I came up with going by what Vamworld said.

 

1882 CC VAM-3B (R5)

1882 CC VAM-2c (R6)

1883 CC VAM-4A (R5) ?

1883 CC VAM-5A (R5) ?

1883 CC Undetermined

1884 CC VAM-1 (R2)

1884 CC VAM-4A (R5)

1884 CC VAM-4A (R5)

1884 CC VAM-4B (R6)

1885 CC VAM-2A (R6)

 

As you see there are 3 R6 coins and 5 R5 coins. Now that you Vamers have wet your pants (lol J/K) and I spent hrs pouring over Vamworld I need some help. Besides the eye strain of looking thru a loop for while, How good are these rarity ratings? I mean do they hold up well or are they getting slaughtered with new finds? The ones I marked with a "?" Did not 100% match up but were very close to the VAM's listed. The last 1883 CC I have marked as undetermined did not really match up well with any of the VAM's listed. I may relook again on that one. Any insight that can be provided would be of great help! You know I think this VAM bug has me now. I will be pouring over all my morgans next few days and seeing if I am as lucky as this man. Do any of these VAM's hold real extra value or are they just like some of the Overton numbers that are common and do not command any premium? Again any help that can be provided would be a great help. I am sure I will have more questions.

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Bruce, there are no actual sales figures listed for any of them in the 2008 VAMView Price Guide and since there is no price history listed on the VAMWorld site, I can only assume that this suggests their scarcity. However, VAMView did have an estimate for some similar specimens: 1882CC VAM2 in MS62 about $400; 1883CC VAM5B in MS63 about $500; 1884CC VAM4B in MS63 about $500. I realize that these aren't the exact ones you listed, but it's all they had.

 

Sorry that I couldn't be more helpful.

 

Chris

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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I bought four of the 1884CC GSA's last year for $160 each. One is a VAM2, one is a VAM3, one is a VAM4B and one is a VAM6. You should also keep in mind that price estimates in VAMView are for attributed and certified coins only.

 

Chris

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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Got it... So an interesting selling point :)

 

Most of the Top 100 and Hot 50 realize premium prices because they can be encapsulated and attributed by, both, NGC and PCGS. Those that don't fall into these categories are relegated to the rest of the grading services, if at all. Whether you are hoping to find Top 100's, Hot 50's or any of the other myriad varieties, it is a lot of fun because there are so many available that are still unattributed. I have several Top 100's and Hot 50's that I purchased graded but unattributed that have tripled in value over the last two years based on actual prices realized.

 

I stopped buying VAM's (of any kind) on the internet, and prefer to search for them at shows and local dealers' display cases. You don't need to memorize every one of the 3,000+ VAM's as long as you know what a Morgan struck on a normal die should look like. The only book I carry with me when I am looking at Morgans is the "VAM Keys" because it is pocket-sized. There are certain Top 100 and Hot 50 varieties that have become familiar to me, so whenever I see, for example, an 1884O, 1885CC or 1888, it is the first thing that I check.

 

There are some VAM collectors who try to build a collection of every variety for a particular date/mm. Now, if you want a real challenge, try to put together a complete set of every variety for 1878.

 

Have fun!

 

Chris

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

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I am no VAM collector, but having been cataloging hundreds of Morgan dollars over the past couple of years, I have the impression that CC VAMs basically have no premium. That's because the coins already carry a big, inflated premium for the CC mintmark - too large a premium at that. In my humble opinion, the 1882-CC, 1883-CC and 1884-CC are practically as common as the 1881-S! But they command an undeserved (to me) premium just because of the "CC".

 

My guess is that you will not be able to do better than the good old "ten back", which is to say, 10% back of greysheet. My standard offer (and I am not making an offer, because I wouldn't want to hassle with these coins) in MS-63 would be :

 

1882-CC $160

1883-CC $160

1884-CC $155

1885-CC $490

 

... and at that, I would immediately overnight those coins off to a dealer contact of mine who will give me "five back" - meaning I make a whole 5% minus shipping.

 

To be honest, when someone brings coins like these to my table, I give them a few contacts where they can get "five back", because I don't even want to take the five percent cut required to mess with these coins. I'd rather let the seller keep that himself.

 

Hope this doesn't come across as harsh or anything. I just think these coins are "widgets" regardless of VAM attribution. Good luck to you and your client!

 

Edited to say: quick followup to piggyback on Chris' post above. Basically, the only VAMs people care about for these CCs are the clashed-dies where the "M" initial appears clashed on the reverse. Why it's so fascinating, I don't know, but I've run across a couple myself. Personally, I have more interest in die-state characteristics of these coins, since they are ideal candidates for die-state study. They frequently start out DMPL, progress to PL and eventually degrade to normally lustrous coins, and it's interesting to follow the degradation of the dies in this manner.

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CHABSENTIA

CHABSENTIA

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True. It also depends on where you are using them. I collect Morgans and am entering them in the Registry. I needed a 1880 S for one of the Sets. I bought the coin raw and sent it in for grading and noticed it was a VAM 11. I put it in the particular Registry and as a MS64

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CHABSENTIA

CHABSENTIA

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True. It also depends on where you are using them. I collect Morgans and am entering them in the Registry. I needed a 1880 S for one of the Sets. I bought the coin raw and sent it in for grading and noticed it was a VAM 11. I put it in the particular Registry and as a MS64 received 135 points.

 

Later I was looking in the HOT 50 scores and noticed it got 272 points and figured NGC had made a mistake . Turns out that NGC gives the same coin twice the number of points if it is in the HOT 50 Registry because they want to encourage people to showcase it in the Hot 50 Registry.

 

So i guess it depends on whether one wants to collect Vams for the sake of Vams, use it in a Registry or for a possible premium . Possibly for a combination of all three.

 

 

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Bruceswar

Bruceswar

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I am happy to report I got good money for the 85 CC from my local dealer. I had a number in my head and he hit it right on the nail. The coin was MS 64 or so Could go MS 63 if they wanted to be really picky. Anyhow I got what I wanted. The rest of the coins will be off to the bay shortly. Thanks for all the help guys :)

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

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I am happy to report I got good money for the 85 CC from my local dealer. I had a number in my head and he hit it right on the nail. The coin was MS 64 or so Could go MS 63 if they wanted to be really picky. Anyhow I got what I wanted. The rest of the coins will be off to the bay shortly. Thanks for all the help guys :)

Of the four dates in question, that's the one where you can most likely do OK.

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