Just in case anyone wanted to know what the NGC downgrade policy appears to be.

[ronday]

I submitted a 2007 MS67 Sag dollar for downgrade. The ebay seller I bought it from said it was a grade guaranteed coin and would not accept a return.

 

I sent the coin to NGC. They downgraded the coin to MS66 ( should have been a MS64 by any impartial standards ) and returned the coin to me without comment or compensation.

 

So much for the G in N "G" C.

 

My registry name is Tradingslabs if anyone is interested in any of my NGC coins, they are ALL FOR SALE.

 

I will accept any reasonable offer and with very few exceptions they will all be sold by the end of the year.

[gmarguli]

Did you call NGC about this? This is not their standard way of handling these situations.

 

I've submitted 3 coins to them for downgrade review.

 

1st: Coin was mailed back slabbed as is with note explaining why it graded as it did. I did not agree with their decision and neither did the owner.

 

2nd: Contacted by NGC that they wished to buy the coin from me. They gave me what I listed on the submission form for the coin. They probably could have replaced it a little cheaper as it was a common coin. I later found out the coin downgraded 4 points during review.

 

3rd: Contacted by NGC to say that not only was the coin fine for the grade, it was high end for the grade. This was an AU58/MS6x issue. The owner though it was AU.

[Just Bob]

How do you feel about the grading accuracy of your other NGC graded coins?

[ronday]

Did you call NGC about this? This is not their standard way of handling these situations.

 

I've submitted 3 coins to them for downgrade review.

 

1st: Coin was mailed back slabbed as is with note explaining why it graded as it did. I did not agree with their decision and neither did the owner.

 

2nd: Contacted by NGC that they wished to buy the coin from me. They gave me what I listed on the submission form for the coin. They probably could have replaced it a little cheaper as it was a common coin. I later found out the coin downgraded 4 points during review.

 

3rd: Contacted by NGC to say that not only was the coin fine for the grade, it was high end for the grade. This was an AU58/MS6x issue. The owner though it was AU.

 

I guess some customers get treated better than others. My previous downgrade submission was returned without comment, even after I asked for one and was assured that I would get one.

 

I am not surprised to hear that a coin downgraded 4 points during review. After having submitted my share of coins to NGC I have found their grading standards to be mercurial at best and their quality control to be downright sloppy. I can understand mistakes, but not with each and every submission I make. Everything from SMS/BS mix-ups to mis-lableled coins to in the holders; wrong dates, wrong type etc... It is a little cheaper across the street and there Registry is not as much fun, but there slabs are nicer, they return my submissions in nice plastic boxes and they honor their guarantee.

[ronday]

How do you feel about the grading accuracy of your other NGC graded coins?

 

Its a crapshoot. I plan to cross what ever I can and sell the rest. I have a MS68 Morgan that I am most likely going to take a bloodbath on since eveyone I have tried to sell it to has told me that it is a nice MS67, but it ain't no 68.

 

Just for fun I submitted a NGC MS68 Mercury dime to PCGS and it came back MS66. I had cracked it out of a MS67 ICG holder. Same with a NGC MS68 SBA dollar that came back MS65.

 

This all started in 2005 when I started buying raw coins on Ebay. I soon realized that I was buying a bunch of junk, so I started buying slabbed coins thinking that I was protecting my self since I did not know enough about coin grading to know a good coin from a bad coin.

 

After buying about $30,000 worth of NGC coins I have come to realize that I wasted alot of money buying "so called" graded coins that for all practical purposes have no real guarantee of grade.

[braddick]

Don't get me wrong, I love NGC, but speaking of downgrading Sacagaweas, I purchased off of Teletrade an NGC MS69 2000-P (yep! MS69) a few months back. Although NGC has graded a few more of these than you would think possible, let's face it, MS69 is a pretty sweet grade.

 

Well... the coin arrived and I was quickly bummed even after just a cursory inspection. It wasn't the tics I counted so much as really the lack of mint bloom and- in all honesty, two little specks of PVC- seen with the naked eye. (Before you say it, I know what PVC looks like, I promise, those two little greenish blue corrosion fly specks were definitely PVC!)

 

I sent the coin to NGC (as returning it to Teletrade is always dreadful, what with their fees/postage they keep) certain it would downgrade and be freshly holdered, or simply not holdered as even NCS will not slab active PVC coins.

 

Nope.

 

It was returned to me with a note stating it was "all good" and warranted the grade.

 

Needless to say, I was doubly bummed, but not to the point of wanting to sell off NGC.

 

I consider it a little lovers spat between the grading service and myself. I'm over it now but certainly do understand what you are feeling.

 

Now, to be fair. What kind of check are you looking for regarding the spread between a 2007 (I take it it's the business strike and not an SMS) in the grades of MS66 and MS67?

[ronday]

Now, to be fair. What kind of check are you looking for regarding the spread between a 2007 (I take it it's the business strike and not an SMS) in the grades of MS66 and MS67?

 

I don't know, what do you think would be fair? The spread on ebay is running about $40 right now.

[braddick]

Now, to be fair. What kind of check are you looking for regarding the spread between a 2007 (I take it it's the business strike and not an SMS) in the grades of MS66 and MS67?

 

I don't know, what do you think would be fair? The spread on ebay is running about $40 right now.

Really? I wasn't aware.

 

Here's a BIN now ebay for $29.00

[EZ_E]

IMO, having NGC or PCGS review their own coin is a conflict of interest. Of course they will say all is kosher if it will minimize their losses and maximize their profits.

 

Still, it's a shame to hear. Any business must realize that their credibility, once lost, is not easily replaced. Then comes the slide into bankruptcy like what happened to ACG.

[ronday]

Now, to be fair. What kind of check are you looking for regarding the spread between a 2007 (I take it it's the business strike and not an SMS) in the grades of MS66 and MS67?

 

I don't know, what do you think would be fair? The spread on ebay is running about $40 right now.

Really? I wasn't aware.

 

Here's a BIN now ebay for $29.00

 

It would appear that the price has, justifiably, dropped on NGC MS67 Sacagawea dollars since I bought mine.

[gmarguli]

After buying about $30,000 worth of NGC coins I have come to realize that I wasted alot of money buying "so called" graded coins that for all practical purposes have no real guarantee of grade.

 

If you think it will be any different with PCGS, you're sadly mistaken. The grade guarantee is not nearly as solid at ANY of the services as people think.

[EZ_E]

After buying about $30,000 worth of NGC coins I have come to realize that I wasted alot of money buying "so called" graded coins that for all practical purposes have no real guarantee of grade.

 

If you think it will be any different with PCGS, you're sadly mistaken. The grade guarantee is not nearly as solid at ANY of the services as people think.

 

You're quite right. That is why a collector should know what they're buying before they shell out the cash. Knowledge and connections are a hobbyist's ONLY protection in the coin game.

[ronday]

After buying about $30,000 worth of NGC coins I have come to realize that I wasted alot of money buying "so called" graded coins that for all practical purposes have no real guarantee of grade.

 

If you think it will be any different with PCGS, you're sadly mistaken. The grade guarantee is not nearly as solid at ANY of the services as people think.

 

Since I deal with both companies, and have sent in downgrades to both I can not confirm your experience since mine has been so different.

[kryptonitecomics]

Just for fun I submitted a NGC MS68 Mercury dime to PCGS and it came back MS66. I had cracked it out of a MS67 ICG holder. Same with a NGC MS68 SBA dollar that came back MS65.

 

This all started in 2005 when I started buying raw coins on Ebay. I soon realized that I was buying a bunch of junk, so I started buying slabbed coins thinking that I was protecting my self since I did not know enough about coin grading to know a good coin from a bad coin.

 

After buying about $30,000 worth of NGC coins I have come to realize that I wasted alot of money buying "so called" graded coins that for all practical purposes have no real guarantee of grade.

 

What your describing to me seems like a difference in grading standards which we know to be true.....it doesn't mean that PCGS grades any better or worse then NGC....they just have different standards. Grading can be subjective and they provide their best opinions based on years of experience and sometimes they get it right by your personal standards and sometime they don't. The 3 and 4 point spreads that you are talking about I just haven't seen and I have had hundreds of coins graded by the top TPGs so something sounds fishy to me that you would have so many bad experiences as you claim to have had....but you are entitled to your opinion based on the facts as you see them. I have also never had a coin mislabeled or anything like that in over 30 submissions so while I do know that it happens.......I truly feel like your exaggerating as far as every submission you have ever had includes problem?

 

Has anyone else posting here had a problem with every single submission they have ever made....?

 

Finally, let's talk about cost.....folks will buy and MS68 Mercury dime in an NGC holder for 40% less then a PCGS graded MS68 would run them.....then when they try to cross the coin and it won't they hop on the soap box and gripe. Really....do you think that any top TPG is going to ignore the holder and just grade as is with the competition in the market place? PCGS wants you to believe they are far superior in grading coins so an MS65 from a competitor is by default going to be inferior to their product....and I would certainly submit that the same happens at NGC at times If you want PCGS graded coins then buy PCGS graded coins for moon money and be happy.....I have no issues with that.........just don't drink the koolaide......NGC will continue to get my money and I can recount dozens of truly exceptional customer service experiences with them so it's a shame that they haven't met your expectations.

 

As they say...you can't please everyone

[ronday]

 

What your describing to me seems like a difference in grading standards which we know to be true.....it doesn't mean that PCGS grades any better or worse then NGC....they just have different standards. Grading can be subjective and they provide their best opinions based on years of experience and sometimes they get it right by your personal standards and sometime they don't. The 3 and 4 point spreads that you are talking about I just haven't seen and I have had hundreds of coins graded by the top TPGs so something sounds fishy to me that you would have so many bad experiences as you claim to have had....but you are entitled to your opinion based on the facts as you see them. I have also never had a coin mislabeled or anything like that in over 30 submissions so while I do know that it happens.......I truly feel like your exaggerating as far as every submission you have ever had includes problem?

 

Has anyone else posting here had a problem with every single submission they have ever made....?

 

Finally, let's talk about cost.....folks will buy and MS68 Mercury dime in an NGC holder for 40% less then a PCGS graded MS68 would run them.....then when they try to cross the coin and it won't they hop on the soap box and gripe. Really....do you think that any top TPG is going to ignore the holder and just grade as is with the competition in the market place? PCGS wants you to believe they are far superior in grading coins so an MS65 from a competitor is by default going to be inferior to their product....and I would certainly submit that the same happens at NGC at times If you want PCGS graded coins then buy PCGS graded coins for moon money and be happy.....I have no issues with that.........just don't drink the koolaide......NGC will continue to get my money and I can recount dozens of truly exceptional customer service experiences with them so it's a shame that they haven't met your expectations.

 

As they say...you can't please everyone

 

In my last submission I returned 3 coins, one for contamination, and one for the RD missing on a copper coin. I have 4 coins from my last submission ready to return. 1 SMS in a BS holder, 2 BS in SMS holders and one quarter labeled as 50c. In my previous submission I included at least 2 other coins that had the wrong date and I forget what the other problem was at the moment. As for the two coins I sent to PCGS, they had no idea that they were ngc coins. I had cracked them out. I have experimented and find that I have about the same percentage crossing coins in the slab or cracked, so I don't bother cracking them out any more.

[harvey8542]

This is good stuff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

If you really want to make your case I would love to see some pictures of the coins with 3 or 4 point downgrades

 

I will take your word for the mechanical errors ....sounds like modern to me which I can't keep up with either with all of the new processes (burnished, Reverse Proof etc) but...if you pay your money you should be able to expect a correctly labeled coin regardless of the series and date.

 

Anybody else having numerous problems with NGC quality standards? I am getting ready to ship off about 30 coins myself so I would love to get a census on why type of problems other folks are having....

 

Anyone from NGC want to comment on how many coins have to be sent in for mechanical error corrections per month

[jackson64]

two of my last 3 submissions had errors on labels...but they fixed them for free (of course I lost time and shipping costs)...they were polite also...I also have 3 coins with misspelled labels that I didn't return....example: millinium 1999-2000...overall they are always courteous, I do wonder how so many errors (not talking about grading) slip through, even with a seperate QC department....maybe the volume is just too much or maybe they need more hirings...who knows, but I have heard the volume is incredible and a grader looks at an average of X coins per minute...a few seconds per coin seems steep for the cost but they are the best I've found....

 

Until someone builds a better mousetrap--or improve the taste of koolaid

[Dcoin]

Maybe this is over simplifying things, but... you took a 40$ bath on a sight unseen modern. To me that’s a cheep lesson in knowing what you are buying, especially with figures like 30G’s.

 

The fire sale sounds a little rash but….

[CHABSENTIA]

Am I getting this right? He cracked an MS67 out of IGC holder then sent it to NGC and then sent it to PCGS.

 

 

Seems like an overkill on grading fees. I once checked out a coin in an SEGS holder that they listed as an MS 70. I looked at the coin and didn't think it was a MS70. I submitted it to NGC and it came back as a MS69 which I figured it for anyway and I payed a low price for it at the onset.

 

 

I sent in a coin that I felt was a Morgan MS64 several weeks ago and it came back as a MS63. NGC might have seen something I didn't see. Last year I sent in a Reverse Proof that I took out of a set I purchased from the Mint in 2006 and it cam back as a PF70.

 

I have never sent in a coin that graded less than a point below what was estimated,

 

I don't understand all the grading fees on the same coin and the loss of four grades.

[CHABSENTIA]

NGC has always been the highest example of Courtesy with me. I have never received anything with mis-spelled labels.

 

I would rather get coins I submitted to NGC with mis-spelled labels then see them mis-spelled on E BAY. In that case I would probably pass on them

[jackson64]

now you're messing around...intentionally misspelling mis-spelled with a hyphen right?...anyhow, Chab your point kinda walks over itself...if you get a misspelled label on a coin from NGC and everyone feels like you and won't buy a coin with a misspelled label--especially off of ebay as you mentioned---then I guess it's yours for life...

[Oldtrader3]

I have submitted quite a few modern coins this year to NGC and all (that's right, all) came back graded correctly or slightly conservatively. Ronday, you are overreacting to being had on Ebay on a sight unseen coin. This happens to all of us who take a chance buying, sight unseen coins from dealers we don't know on Ebay. Approximately 50% of my coins and most of my gold coins are in NGC slabs. One badly graded coin would not make me panic and sell all of them at a loss.

 

NGC and PCGS went through a period a couple years ago when they both appeared to be overgrading and their (please spell this word correctly) slabs had label errors caused by, IMHO, long backlogs.

[BULLY]

How do you feel about the grading accuracy of your other NGC graded coins?

 

Its a crapshoot. I plan to cross what ever I can and sell the rest. I have a MS68 Morgan that I am most likely going to take a bloodbath on since eveyone I have tried to sell it to has told me that it is a nice MS67, but it ain't no 68.

 

Just for fun I submitted a NGC MS68 Mercury dime to PCGS and it came back MS66. I had cracked it out of a MS67 ICG holder. Same with a NGC MS68 SBA dollar that came back MS65.

 

Isn't this the precise reason for the NGC guarantee? However, if it's cracked out of the MS68 holder and it gets graded as an MS65, you destroyed your own guarantee in that case, so would have only yourself to blame, as I understand how the NGC Guarantee works.

 

http://www.ngcterms.com/grading-guarantee/index.asp

 

From the policy:

 

 

In the event that any owner or subsequent purchaser of an NGC coin believes that a coin has been over-graded by NGC with respect to such procedures, such person may submit the coin to NGC through its "Appearance Review" service for a review of the assigned grade. If the grade determined under such review in NGC's sole opinion is ultimately lower than that originally assigned to the coin, NGC shall, at NGC's option, either exchange the coin in question with an equivalent coin at the earlier higher grade or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the coin at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such coin.

 

Removal of a coin from its NGC holder, or tampering with the holder, nullifies this Guarantee. If requested, NGC will remedy any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of a coin on its label, free of charge.

 

The NGC Guarantee does not apply to coins that have been removed at any time from their original NGC holder, or to coins that bear any evidence of tampering which determination shall be at the sole discretion of NGC.

[Larry Dreher]

Ron,

 

I understand your emotion but let a few days pass before you do anything drastic with your NGC coins.

 

Regarding mechanical errors: I send in quite a few Pandas and find mislabeled coins in nearly every order. My orders are complicated though, especially with all the panda varieties and I usually submit 100+ coins at a time. NGC has always addressed the errors promptly and everybody there I have talked with has been very helpful. On one order with a rather large number of errors, they offered return shipping for free. Usually I just submit the errors with my next order so postage isn't a big deal.

 

If NGC is listening, I think it would be a great gesture to offer a coupon for a free grading for each mechanical error they fix. The free grading doesn't really cost them much in hard dollars and I think it could go a long way in making collectors feel compensated for the hassle of returning the coin.

[just-john]

I still don't understand why somebody should have to pay shipping both ways to correct a

mistake for services when the the company providing those serves is at fault/ spelling wrong dates or wrong discription .Wish a company like Dillion Precision Products graded coins they have a no BS guarantee with no weasel words it simple if for any reason your not happy with one of our products send it back we will refund the cost of the product or replace it if you want and all your shipping costs period

[jgrinz]

Sorry Ron -

 

Because of your ONE or TWO posts a YEAR here AND ALL of them to STIR up the pot of your disdain for NGC, I take anything you say as one with an agenda who's ultimate end is to create unrest among the faithful here ay NGC.

 

No Business/Business model is perfect ... I am at ease with my decision to accept this fact ...

 

( This comment in no way takes away my respect for you and your site )

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BULLY]

Sorry Ron -

 

Because of your ONE or TWO posts a YEAR here AND ALL of them to STIR up the pot of your disdain for NGC, I take anything you say as one with an agenda who's ultimate end is to create unrest among the faithful here ay NGC.

 

No Business/Business model is perfect ... I am at ease with my decision to accept this fact ...

 

( This comment in no way takes away my respect for you and your site )

 

 

I must admit that I've had my fair share of trouble with NGC lately. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of NGC and its services. While I will buy coins graded by NGC or PCGS and consider them of equal value for my collection, when it comes time to get coins graded myself, it is to NGC that I turn.

 

I had some problems last year, with imaging, with order combination, etc., and when it came time to renew, I was hesitant. I addressed the issues with NGC, gave examples, showed them pictures (the BAD ones). They fixed what they could, extolled their virtues, and offered some credits to make it worth my while to continue, a fair trade.

 

Unfortunately, I've encountered some bad luck with the first few orders of this membership year:

 

1. Entire orders not being imaged, if I selected it.

2. Orders NEVER being returned together, resulting in much higher shipping rates. NGC says that they USUALLY do this (though not always). For me, it's never happened. 100% of the time each individual order is returned separately. That's not a "usually" in my book.

3. Some orders with imaging had coins where one side of the coin was skipped, or coins on the order were skipped entirely, or photos were just SO bad, they were reminiscent of last year. In fact, they took 3-4 photos of such coins, presumably to try to give me a choice of which I liked better. Unfortunately, none of the above, but, that's for me to address with NGC.

4. Some service issues with labeling, which NGC WAS able to correct before shipping.

 

I've got inquiries in to NGC about some of these issues, and others as well. In fairness, NGC has already offered to either refund imaging charges for coins that were not imaged and should have been (an obvious choice) or to send them for imaging. Of course my question is about shipping costs. While I can include them with a future order, I want to be sure that I am not charged return shipping, since I have had trouble with combined orders on the return trip. So I am awaiting some detailed responses.

 

However, overall, I think NGC has been responsive, and while they make errors, their service level is high, and within acceptable tolerances. Admittedly, I have high standards. I also happen to have bad luck. If there is going to be an error, I am generally a magnet for it. If there is going to be a medication side effect (one of those things that happens to 1 in 10,000,000 people?) it will happen to me. I can't help it, I'm just exceptional that way.

 

Despite everything though, I've seen NGC stand by their product and services, and I think that's ultimately why I return. It makes a world of difference!

[CHABSENTIA]

I should have explained myself a little. In an area where I am familar such as Morgans and Moderns for now then there wouldn't be a difference.

 

 

If I should ever get into one of the other areas where people on these Forums talk about being able to recognize certain slabs such as improper labelling etc and the fact that certain type coins are subject to counterfeits then I would not buy them,however, if I bought a raw coin and submitted it to NGC and it came back slabbed but with an error such as mispellling then it would not be a problem.

[CHABSENTIA]

I have never had any problem/s with the areas you mention because I don' t usually avail myself of these services.Since NGC is in Saraota Florida and I am in Jacksonvillle Florida the turn around times are good and the Postage is less than if I were in another State.

 

 

I don't understand the reason for three grading fees in one of the examples.

 

I have never had a problem with NGC and they have been above board in Courtesy in every instance. I used to be a Manager in Retail and I can assure you that there are some people you just can't please in any situation.

 

If I had a problem with NGC then I would deal with it on a personal level. If I was very unhappy with the outcome then I would just walk away and not extend my Membership so I don't understand all the venting by this particular person.