Difference in Coin values

[Jeffrey Cardona]

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions that I hope someone can educate me on. Why do the value of coins vary from one source to another? For example: 2006 20th Anniversary Reverse Proof Silver Eagle PF 70 shows a value of $880 from NumisMedia and $1100 from PCGS. That is about a 20% difference. How would I go about getting an honest estimate of my coins? Do I just take average value from a few sources? And is there any source that you guys in the forum recommend?

 

Thanks

Jeffrey

[Zoins]

Numsimedia is for NGC graded coins and the PCGS Price Guide is for PCGS graded coins. If you check realized auction prices, you'll note there is often a price discrepancy depending on who graded the coin.

 

The best place to check prices for these is probably eBay realized auction prices which currently shows NGC just over $500 and PCGS at $900. Some price guides are generally known to be high.

 

As for why the discrepancy exists, it comes down to supply and demand which is driven by numerous factors.

[DaveG]

Price guides are only "guides" and each one is put together by different people using different sources.

 

Although I'm not active in the ultra-high-grade modern segment of the coin market it's also common wisdom that PCGS coins fetch higher prices than coins in slabs from other grading services.

 

For something like an ultra-high-grade modern, I, too, would recommend following prices on eBay or any other active auction marketplace.

[BULLY]

Numsimedia is for NGC graded coins and the PCGS Price Guide is for PCGS graded coins. If you check realized auction prices, you'll note there is often a price discrepancy depending on who graded the coin.

 

The best place to check prices for these is probably eBay realized auction prices which currently shows NGC just over $500 and PCGS at $900. Some price guides are generally known to be high.

 

As for why the discrepancy exists, it comes down to supply and demand which is driven by numerous factors.

 

While PCGS' price guide qualifies itself that it is for PCGS graded coins, and says that coins graded by other TPGs may be of other values, I am not certain that this is equally true of Numismedia.

 

I was told by NGC, in so many words:

 

 

The prices are supplied to us by NumisMedia, an independent third-party price guide. NGC does not inform or edit this information in any way. If you would like to contact NumisMedia directly, you may do so through our message boards:

 

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=54&page=1

 

If you read the ASK Numismedia section, they are referenced as

 

"A guest forum for NumisMedia to answer questions about their pricing guide or the market in general"

 

While Numismedia's web site clearly indicates that it is:

 

"NumisMedia is the Official Price Guide of NGC and the Collectors Society"

 

It goes on to say:

 

"The prices listed within the NumisMedia FMV Price Guide

represent our Fair Market Value determination for a

properly graded coin within each category.

 

The pricing information we report comes from all over the

numismatic market including many reliable dealers known

for their unbiased market knowledge and information.

 

NumisMedia Price Guides are constantly

changing and updated daily."

 

Unless I am missing something, while they are clearly closely affiliated with NGC, I can see no reference to their pricing being exclusively limited to NGC graded coins. It would also seem to imply that NGC graded coins are worth LESS than PCGS graded coins, which I think is arguable at best. While some collectors and even dealers have this bias, I think there are plenty of others who are biased in favor of NGC. I think there are many others who see the two as interchangeable.

 

Perhaps it is the pricing at Numismedia that is simply more conservative, just as grading practices can be more liberal or conservative from one TPG to another.

 

[ant]

i have spoken to the gentleman at numismedia many of times. he is awsome. give him a call and he will help with his end i myself use these all together:

 

ebay (finalized auctions)(and only within a 2 week to month period)

numismedia (ngc coins)

pcgs (pcgs coins)

coin world values (a middle checkpoint )

 

if a coin is raw i use mainly ebay to figure what to sell at ( a item is only worth what some1 will pay for it) while also checking to see what others (value guides) think.

[ant]

and always remember BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB. if the slab was invisable the coin would be the same! so should the value be the same

[BULLY]

i have spoken to the gentleman at numismedia many of times. he is awsome. give him a call and he will help with his end i myself use these all together:

 

ebay (finalized auctions)(and only within a 2 week to month period)

numismedia (ngc coins)

pcgs (pcgs coins)

coin world values (a middle checkpoint )

 

if a coin is raw i use mainly ebay to figure what to sell at ( a item is only worth what some1 will pay for it) while also checking to see what others (value guides) think.

 

This still doesn't tell me that Numismedia IS a price guide JUST for NGC coins. While being the official price guide for NGC, I think the two can be mutually exclusive.

 

Taken today (02/18/2008) from the Numismedia web site:

 

http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/fmvside.shtml

 

"What is Fair Market Value?

Fair Market Value is not a new term; however, it may be somewhat new to the coin industry. It refers to the price a dealer is asking for a coin, which is somewhat over his wholesale price. You may ask why you cannot buy coins at wholesale. Very simply, you can. All you have to do is buy an inventory, set up your office or store, dedicate yourself full-time, buy insurance, obtain a security system, hire employees, advertise your company name, and you are in business. You can compete with the other dealers on an equal basis. However, if you are not prepared to do this, then you must allow the dealers who are in business, who bear the risks of market cycles, a fair markup on the coins they inventory. These dealers have to make a living just like you do in your chosen career.

 

This is not their hobby, this is their career. Most dealers have spent many years in this business, fine tuning their skills to the point that they are experts in various fields. Granted, not all coin dealers are created equal. That is why competition, education, inventory, cash reserves, expertise, integrity, longevity, concern for the future of the industry, all meld into what makes up the ideal coin dealer in the eyes of the collector. You must also remember, that many collectors may be as much an expert in their chosen field as some coin dealers. Through the many years of education--reading about and studying coins, collectors develop a love for numismatics that goes beyond just a pure business aspect. They truly care about numismatics. There are many dealers who feel the same way. It is your job to select the dealers who you feel will represent your best interests as well as their own.

 

Getting down to brass tacks, if dealers are not allowed to make a fair profit for all their time and efforts in building a successful business, then they will not remain in business. The more dealers that are in business create more competition. If you create a competitive situation, dealers vying for your coins, as you want to sell them, then you will be able to maximize your returns. If there are fewer dealers making a profit in the coin business, competition will not be as fierce, and when you want to sell your coins, you will be at the mercy of the few remaining dealers. More dealers, more competition; it is that simple. This is free enterprise--the American way.

 

Now, what really is Fair Market Value? It is a reasonable charge over a dealer's wholesale price for a specific coin. "How do you determine that wholesale price on which you base the Fair Market Value?" As professional impartial coin price information providers, we search the entire marketplace to find the lowest wholesale price for coins that are available to purchase. Competition among dealers to sell their coins will force them to offer their coins at realistically competitive prices. The more coins that are available in a specific grade within a series, means that dealers will be more competitive with their prices. The Fair Market Value is based on the rarity of the coin. On rarer coins the markup may be, and should be somewhat higher.

 

I have served in several capacities in the coin business for 30 years. I have been watching, learning, and studying market capabilities, market momentum, market strategies, and market cycles for over 20 years. I have noted the marketplace transitions that have occurred over the last ten years. I have seen the market transcend from studying coins and trading coins on a sight basis prior to 1985; collectors were excited to look at and purchase coins they liked. With encapsulated coins, the marketplace tried to venture into an arena whereby coins could be traded just like stocks, without seeing them. This does not work for the multitude of coins. If coin collecting were created to trade just like stocks, there would be no need to ever look at the individual coins. There would be no coin collectors.

 

However, there are coin collectors; thousands, if not millions of them and there have been since Biblical times. If they don't like the appearance of the coin, a cheap price does not make it look any better, only more reasonable. We have now come full circle. Dealers and collectors want to view the coins they are about to buy. If dealers like the overall appearance of the coin, they will pay a fair price. If the collector feels the same way about a coin he/she likes, they also will be willing to pay a Fair Market Value for the coin. This Fair Market Value is the price we will report to you. This will give you a fair way of learning more about the coins you purchase and relieve some of your concerns about the value of those coins. Remember, "Cheap coins aren't nice, and nice coins aren't cheap".

 

Bear in mind that the more coins available within a given grade category, the more competitive prices will be. If a dealer owns a coin that is certified as a very low population, or, is a one-of-a-kind issue, this dealer may Ask any price he/she wants. In these rare instances, it behooves the collector to research this particular coin to determine whether they think this is a good value. If NumisMedia posts a price of an extremely rare coin, which may be the only coin offered (Fair Market Value or recent auction information), it is listed for reference purposes only. NumisMedia takes every precaution to determine the validity of prices posted on this system. However, NumisMedia makes no assertions or guarantees (implied or otherwise) that the coins offered by the dealers on this system are a good value. As a collector, you are obligated to study and learn about numismatics before you spend substantial amounts of money on rare coins. Competition among dealers will create the most competitive prices for coins. It is normally an appropriate course to check out the various dealers with whom you wish to do business. The dealers on this system are dedicated to numismatics. How they serve you, is strictly up to you."

 

I am STILL missing the part where this is LIMITED to NGC coins.

 

 

[World Colonial]

There are several good responses in this post but here is a short one. Look at actual market prices instead of any catalogue. The best public free sources for the material you mentioned are probably Teletrade and Heritage. The information is posted on their websites and all you have to do is register but it does not cost anything.

[EZ_E]

Bully, it's apparent you have lots of time on your hands. Boy, am I glad that you're a knowledgeable and intelligent collector. Otherwise, it would be tough reading through ten thousand words of y'alls and you'ins.

 

As always, an exceptional post!

[BillJones]

and always remember BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB. if the slab was invisable the coin would be the same! so should the value be the same

 

This applies to most areas of the coin market, but when it comes to ultra modern coins, PCGS graded pieces bring more money as a product. It’s my impression that some collectors view the PCGS registry as the more prestigious of the two. Since the PCGS registry will only accept PCGS graded coins, that increases the demand for their products, especially in the ultra modern coin areas. That puts additional market pressure on their product (product = coin + slab), which raises the prices.

 

In the areas where I collect, which is mostly obsolete coinage, I think that the PCGS ban on NGC holders puts the PCGS registry at a disadvantage when comes to showcasing all the best coins. It means that a large group of coins can’t be posted on their site, which excludes some of the finer pieces.

 

The situation is similar the time when Major League baseball banned African-American players from the American and National Leagues. The owners might have claimed that they had all the best players, but the truth was there were guys like Satchel Paige and Joss Gibson who were as good or better than any white player who ever stepped on the field. The problem was they were excluded because of their race.

 

[just carl]

I sure do agree about long answers. I never read them. Not enough time left in my life to spend reading a book for an answer. Sure don't know what they say.

My short answer is a guide is just that, a guide. Even per the dictionary a guide is only ment to direct you to something. What I do for a coins value is take the price in the Red Book, The price on the PCGS web site, ebay price, then finally a few on line dealers. Take all and add together, divide by the amount of entries and I now have an average value. That's what I use.

[Just Bob]

The situation is similar the time when Major League baseball banned African-American players from the American and National Leagues. The owners might have claimed that they had all the best players, but the truth was there were guys like Satchel Paige and Joss Gibson who were as good or better than any white player who ever stepped on the field. The problem was they were excluded because of their race.

 

Don't get me started on the old Negro League. If Gibson had played in the Majors, you can bet that the record books would look different today.

 

 

From ESPN.com:

 

Belting home runs of more than 500 feet was not unusual for Gibson. One homer in Monessen, Pa., reportedly was measured at 575 feet. The Sporting News of June 3, 1967 credits Gibson with a home run in a Negro League game at Yankee Stadium that struck two feet from the top of the wall circling the center field bleachers, about 580 feet from home plate. Although it has never been conclusively proven, Chicago American Giants infielder Jack Marshall said Gibson slugged one over the third deck next to the left field bullpen in 1934 for the only fair ball hit out of the House That Ruth Built.

 

 

 

OK - Back to coins...

[halfpint]

[font:Arial Black] [/font] after reading all the posts on the subject of pricing it makes me ask.

 

what the heck do the insurance companies use as a qualified price that they would accept to pay if you make a claim?

 

steve

[ant]

my insurance company used numismedia they just went with what is on the regestry print out. some wont though. most have there own guidelines to go by when paying a claim. contact you holder they had less of a problem covering me due to they could go online and see it and it is traceable.

[Zoins]

Does NGC use Numismedia for their grade guarantee? PCGS does not use the PCGS Price Guide.

[ant]

im not sure on that! some have *** next to them that mean something but i dont know off hand. something bout a mother coin.numismedia is the prices in regestry so i would think so.

[BULLY]

Bully, it's apparent you have lots of time on your hands. Boy, am I glad that you're a knowledgeable and intelligent collector. Otherwise, it would be tough reading through ten thousand words of y'alls and you'ins.

 

As always, an exceptional post!

 

Thank you, though a couple things to keep in mind:

 

1. As for the time I have, it's just because I have a sleep disorder, and sometimes go all night, or for days at a time with no sleep, so I have to pass the time somehow.

 

2. I have a new rescue kitten in the house, and he likes to "help" me at the keyboard. READ: Everything takes 10 times longer than it should.

 

3. I may yet be proven wrong. I posed the question as phrased from the other users in the "Ask Numismedia" Chat Board, for a definitive answer, from the source.

[BULLY]

Bully, it's apparent you have lots of time on your hands. Boy, am I glad that you're a knowledgeable and intelligent collector. Otherwise, it would be tough reading through ten thousand words of y'alls and you'ins.

 

As always, an exceptional post!

 

3. I may yet be proven wrong. I posed the question as phrased from the other users in the "Ask Numismedia" Chat Board, for a definitive answer, from the source.

 

Ok, here's the DEFINITIVE answer about this, directly from the President of Numismedia, Dennis Baker, posted in the "Ask Numismedia" boards:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2208229&page=1&gonew=1#UNREAD

 

In case the link won't work for you, here is what he said:

NumisMedia FMV prices are for accurately graded coins. In reporting prices this typically means that they are for coins certified by NGC and PCGS. However, we try not to use results of prices for low end coins because we rarely see collectors or dealers going out and trying to buy the lowest end coins for a particular grade. Real numismatists want at least average to better than average for the grade. I hope this helps solve this mystery.

_________________________

Dennis R. Baker President NumisMedia