As promised, reporting back on the 1943-S Walker in the Heritage sale...

[MarkFeld]

Here is the original thread: see here

 

My notes and recollections are as follows: Dark, but pretty on the obverse; skirt lines which aren't apparent in the image are clearly visible when the coin is tilted slightly; reverse with some dark, dull areas, as well as patches of splotchy light/white color, the latter of which is visible in the image. While I like the obverse, that side is not special enough to overcome the unappealing reverse. I grade it MS65. Link to Heritage listing

[MikeInFL]

Do you think it turned in the holder, or was like that when slabbed?...Mike

 

p.s. thanks for the update.

[jgrinz]

Wow .. I like this dealer

Direct to the point makes his opinion and moves on ..

I think I will use him to pawn my stuff

 

[MarkFeld]

Do you think it turned in the holder, or was like that when slabbed?...Mike

 

p.s. thanks for the update.

My guess would be that the coin was that way when it was slabbed and got a grade bump for the obverse color.

[MikeInFL]

Thanks Mark.

[coinman1794]

This kind of coin would probably be downgraded or conserved (with something to lighten it) if resubmitted to NGC under Apearance Review. NGC is hesitant to grade deeply toned coins at the MS66 level these days, and they will often treat (free of charge, or permission for that mater) my originally toned coins when I submit them for grading. They don't like this look anymore. The obverse isn't bad, in my opinion, though I haven't seen it in person.

[MikeInFL]

Coinman, Do you have a before and after photo of a coin that NGC dipped without your permission? Thanks...Mike

 

p.s. I apologize for the tanget.

[jackson64]

thanks for following up Mark...obviously not as bad as I had originally thought from the pics...Walkers can be a challenge to phot--if you highlight the luster you often lose the fine details like skirtlines..and viceversa..highlighting details often leaves pics looking dull..thanks for the info..

[rrantique]

Thanks for the update Mark. (thumbs u

[supertooth]

Mark---- First, I'd like to thank you for taking your time to look at the coin and give your opinions. I'd also like to thank jackson 64 for starting his original thread---as we definitely need more discussions on matters such as this.

 

Now that the auction is over, we know what the coin sold for----546.25---That is about midway between greysheet prices for MS65 and MS66 coins. Whether our discussions on the boards had any effect on its final price----we do not know one way or the other. We also do not know the condition of the thumb and finger separations on the coin----as Mark did not mention this in his evaluation of the coin. We also did not get his opinion on whether he was sure that the coin was NT---only that he liked the obverse but not the reverse.

 

But, IMHO, this is what "again" we have found out. First, that we simply CANNOT trust pictures to tell the entire truth about a coin. Second, that neither the seller nor the auction house will tell you what you need to know in their descriptions. Thirdly, that we tend to rely on the TPGS -----far too much IMHO---for an accurate grading of a coin. Fourthly, that, if Mark's grade of an MS65 is correct, the 'new' owner of this coin probably would NOT be offered his costs---if he were to try and sell the coin to a dealer tomorrow.

 

But, the simple bottom line is that we REALLY do need to see the coin in hand---once the grade gets to the MS65 level or higher. And that, we REALLY do need to know our series----how to GRADE---BEFORE we start to bid on coins in the 65 or higher levels. WHY?? Because the price jumps for each point above an MS64 level are costing us hundreds or thousands of dollars when we bid.

 

And, just one final thought about this 43S coin----and all Walkers in general---IMHO any Walker---including the "S" minted coins----should NOT make the grade of MS66 or higher---If they do not have some separation in the thumb area. Strike is indeed important in grading a Walker---any Walker. The PCGS official guide to coin grading says that for an MS65 coin that the strike "will be well-struck". It does not say well struck for an "S" minted Walker. So certainly, for an MS66 coin, it should be well struck. Now, I know that certain S and D minted Walkers are noted for weaker strikes. But, even taking that into account, a MS66 Walker IMHO should NOT have a weak or flat center or no thumb separation. Those coins should NEVER be allowed to get any higher than a 64--65 grade IMHO. For me, as a Walker collector, I will just hunt---until I find a well struck example. And, that, my friends, is how it should be. Those coins ARE out there. One must just LOOK for them. Bob [supertooth]

 

 

[Just Bob]

Well said, Bob!

[coinman1794]

Coinman, Do you have a before and after photo of a coin that NGC dipped without your permission? Thanks...Mike

 

p.s. I apologize for the tanget.

 

Well, it's not dipping, usually. They generally call me if they want to do that. Almost every color coin that I've submitted to NGC in the past 6 months has been treated with something, probably denatured alchohol or acetone (?), presumably (?) to remove haze and make the surfaces more stable for long term preservation. That's my theory. I have emailed them several times to tell them they either ruined or noticably deminished a few of my color coins, but they have never responded. On my latest submission, I stuck post-its on each flip and wrote on each invoice "Please do not conserve; may result in substancial financial loss," and they didn't conserve those coins.

 

I think its great if they can do little things to make the coins better without actually dipping/cleaning them, but when I have to bite the bullet on their whim, it's a mixed blessing at best.

 

I should aslo note that the results of what they have done have been mostly possitive, but there are exceptions.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I agree with Bob (Supertooth) and others, that this coin should not have gone for strong money. The reverse feather detail (from the photo) was severely lacking for a MS65+ coin. Even '43-S Walkers should have better feather detail than this one has.

[D.D.]

 

I would like to ask some questions about the 40S,41S,42S,43S,44S,45S,46S Walkers....

 

What percentage of the late date "S" minted Walkers are fully struck?

 

I think James Pryor said "10% of the total mintage" for the dates above. Do you believe this?

 

As a collector Which fully struck "S" minted late date is worth more to you? Forget the price guides...

 

Do you think Registry Sets have played a part in weaker struck Walkers getting into higher grade holders?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I would like to ask some questions about the 40S,41S,42S,43S,44S,45S,46S Walkers....

 

What percentage of the late date "S" minted Walkers are fully struck?

 

I think James Pryor said "10% of the total mintage" for the dates above. Do you believe this?

 

As a collector Which fully struck "S" minted late date is worth more to you? Forget the price guides...

 

Do you think Registry Sets have played a part in weaker struck Walkers getting into higher grade holders?

 

Please define "fully struck" ?

 

With respect to your question about "Registry Sets" - I believe that the major TPG's were forgiving of various issues that aren't as well made as others, long before "Registry Sets" existed.

[D.D.]

Please define "fully struck" ?

 

 

To me:

Obverse- complete head, full hand with finger & thumb splits with the knuckles showing, all the skirt lines showing

 

Reverse- an eagle's breast that is full and looks like it was just shot up with steroids.

[MarkFeld]

Please define "fully struck" ?

 

 

To me:

Obverse- complete head, full hand with finger & thumb splits with the knuckles showing, all the skirt lines showing

 

Reverse- an eagle's breast that is full and looks like it was just shot up with steroids.

In other words, you want to limit the discussion to a small number of issues within the series?

[D.D.]

In other words, you want to limit the discussion to a small number of issues within the series?

 

 

Right, I just don't think you would have that many late dated S minted Walkers left if you went by my definition.

[supertooth]

D.D.

 

Would 'seriously' doubt that there would be 10% of the total number of MS65 and MS66 coins graded by both NGC and PCGS that would fit your description of a fully struck Walker. Which seriously makes the fully struck coins even more desirable IMHO. Bob [supertooth]

[MarkFeld]

Mark---- First, I'd like to thank you for taking your time to look at the coin and give your opinions. I'd also like to thank jackson 64 for starting his original thread---as we definitely need more discussions on matters such as this.

 

Now that the auction is over, we know what the coin sold for----546.25---That is about midway between greysheet prices for MS65 and MS66 coins. Whether our discussions on the boards had any effect on its final price----we do not know one way or the other. We also do not know the condition of the thumb and finger separations on the coin----as Mark did not mention this in his evaluation of the coin. We also did not get his opinion on whether he was sure that the coin was NT---only that he liked the obverse but not the reverse.

 

But, IMHO, this is what "again" we have found out. First, that we simply CANNOT trust pictures to tell the entire truth about a coin. Second, that neither the seller nor the auction house will tell you what you need to know in their descriptions. Thirdly, that we tend to rely on the TPGS -----far too much IMHO---for an accurate grading of a coin. Fourthly, that, if Mark's grade of an MS65 is correct, the 'new' owner of this coin probably would NOT be offered his costs---if he were to try and sell the coin to a dealer tomorrow.

 

But, the simple bottom line is that we REALLY do need to see the coin in hand---once the grade gets to the MS65 level or higher. And that, we REALLY do need to know our series----how to GRADE---BEFORE we start to bid on coins in the 65 or higher levels. WHY?? Because the price jumps for each point above an MS64 level are costing us hundreds or thousands of dollars when we bid.

 

And, just one final thought about this 43S coin----and all Walkers in general---IMHO any Walker---including the "S" minted coins----should NOT make the grade of MS66 or higher---If they do not have some separation in the thumb area. Strike is indeed important in grading a Walker---any Walker. The PCGS official guide to coin grading says that for an MS65 coin that the strike "will be well-struck". It does not say well struck for an "S" minted Walker. So certainly, for an MS66 coin, it should be well struck. Now, I know that certain S and D minted Walkers are noted for weaker strikes. But, even taking that into account, a MS66 Walker IMHO should NOT have a weak or flat center or no thumb separation. Those coins should NEVER be allowed to get any higher than a 64--65 grade IMHO. For me, as a Walker collector, I will just hunt---until I find a well struck example. And, that, my friends, is how it should be. Those coins ARE out there. One must just LOOK for them. Bob [supertooth]

 

Bob, to address some of the points raised in your post above....

 

1) You're most welcome - it was my pleasure.

 

2) I doubt that our discussion affected the price realized for the coin. If a price is going to be influenced by a forum discussion, however, my guess is that it's far more likely it will be in a positive and not a negative direction.

 

3) As I recall, there was very little separation of the thumb and hand.

 

4) I had no question about the coin's originality.

 

5) The "new owner of this coin probably would NOT be offered his costs---if he were to try and sell the coin to a dealer tomorrow" whether it is accurately graded or not.

[supertooth]

Yes, Mr. Mark Feld, you are the exception to the rule. As you know from my many PM messages to you---over time--- I am not much of a fan of coin dealers. But, I am constantly amazed by your honesty----and your willingness to share information. I know that our NGC board is constantly benefited by your postings. Thank you. Bob [supertooth]

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

In 1937 and in 1938, assistant engraver John R. Sinnock made some minor modifications in order to improve the strike qualities, but there still did not seem to be enough metal in the planchets to accommodate clarity of the central design elements. Elements such as those in the left hand and head, along with the eagle’s breast and leg feathers were consistently weak, but were struck well enough for circulation. It is only the collectors who notice these anomalies and use them to PQ a coin.

 

Why latter San Francisco coins came out weaker than the other mints is pure conjecture. There are numerous theories from having to use already worn dies to the lack of striking pressure required in order to raise the high relief. One has to remember, these coins were minted for currency and not for the first line collectors.

 

You asked us to bite off a sizable chunk of information listing all the later S minted Walkers. In my opinion, every S minted coin in the entire series is the hardest of the coins to put together in any condition, much less getting all MS-65’s throughout 40’s!

 

D.D., I do not agree that the number of Registry Sets account for any significant adverse or positive affects of the Walker series. The lack of quality specimens along with high demand creates re-submissions or quick sales in hopes of a higher grade. Also, if grading companies are relaxing their standards, the older held onto Walkers will do much better this go around, it is the nature of the beast.

 

In my opinion, the coin in question was generously awarded a grade of 66, but then again it is only an image we see, we need 3-D virtual reality images. One day we shall put on a sensor glove, reality goggles, reach into the screen and remove a 1946-S Walker, flip it, turn it and examine the surfaces. Till then, it’s opinion based on pixilation.

 

~Woody~

 

how some end up!

 

[ant]

awsome ring! id sport that quik!

[MarkFeld]

Yes, Mr. Mark Feld, you are the exception to the rule. As you know from my many PM messages to you---over time--- I am not much of a fan of coin dealers. But, I am constantly amazed by your honesty----and your willingness to share information. I know that our NGC board is constantly benefited by your postings. Thank you. Bob [supertooth]

 

Thanks so much Bob. I must confess, though, part of my point was that in many cases the winning bidder in an auction has outbid much of the numismatic world. And even if he/she later offers the coin to a dealer (or collector) who will pay a fair price, that price will still be below what the winning bid was.

[Oldtrader3]

The 1941-S, followed by 1942-S and then 1944-S and 1943-S are the most expensive coins for well struck, MS65 Walker's from the 1940's. Price is some indication of strike quality for these coins.